January 11, 2024

Miranda Bailey on “The Squid and the Whale” and Indie TV

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Welcome to On Production presented by Wrapbook. Today we're diving deep into the world of independent cinema with our exceptional guest, Miranda Bailey. With roles as a producer, director, actor and distributor, Miranda truly embodies the multi hyphenate spirit of filmmaking. She has over 20 films to her credit, including critical and commercial hits like The Squid and the Whale, Diary of a Teenage Girl and Swiss Army Man raised in Vail, Colorado, and honed onsets and stages from New York to Los Angeles. She's here to give us the nitty gritty details on how to excel in the art and business of film production. Welcome, Miranda.


Thanks so much, Cameron.


So Miranda, you have a really interesting story. I mean, I'm curious. Can you just give us a brief introduction, kind of how you became interested in telling stories through the moving image?


Yeah, well, um, I knew I wanted to be an actress or be in making movies when I was eight, because my dad was best friends with Brian Dennehy or he was one of his best friends. So he was uncle Brian to me. And so I went when I was eight years old, I went to the set of him filming a movie called Little Miss marker with Walter Matthau. And I was already younger or older. No, I think it was younger. But I remember. It was like a giant dollhouse. So for me, like the set and the stage, so I was in. And then I was like, Well, this is what I'm doing the rest of my life. And then I did.


Read it, even our listeners, like a step by step guide on how today you kickstarter a new project, and maybe how you did it when you first started as well. Because I mean, your career has been really interesting in that it's both touched on and continues to touch on documentary storytelling, but then also narrative features as well. So I'm curious, like, when you're thinking about taking on a new series, I mean, I think you're even moving into some like, television series as well. Like, how, how are you today, from where you started thinking about how to dig in on some of these projects,


how I am today, and from when I first started deciding to produce, I've learned a lot. You know, listen, Cameron, if there was a step by step process, then everybody would do it. So there isn't one. Each project is unique, and they kind of come at you in different stages. So if you're starting from just as a producer, wanting to make a project, obviously, the first thing that you need to do is either have a script, or an idea for a script, or some IP, like a book, or a play, or a short story, or a short film or something like that, from from there. So that's like stage one is as a producer to get, you know, your project, then you need to get it into script form, which is oftentimes hiring a writer a lot of times, a lot of filmmakers like myself are also directors and actors as well. So you kind of a lot of people make their own projects. And then from there, it's like kind of a spider web of what happens next. You know, and it depends on what type of movie it is but no matter what you need a budget that's not like random number basis shocked to how many people come to me they're like we're looking between seven and I'm like, wanting to read is like one and a half really to make this like so. You know, you want to hire a line producer to give you an actual budget if you're below the line anyway, and those are always kind of about the same number depending on how many days you're shooting. So you know, if you're shooting for 12 days, that no it's a pretty small number and if you're shooting for 50 days, it's a much larger number but all the below the line the daily rates are all the same because you're using you know, or hopefully using IRC and and yet


Yep, absolutely what for you and your projects spanning your career like what is the range between the shoot days for say like the amazing Jonathan documentary versus like a feature film like super


well blocks, you can't really count like dogs shooting days are not at all the same in terms of production, you know, costs or anything compared to features totally different. I mean, you can make a documentary with just your iPhone. And lots of footage I have and a lot of the documentaries that I have made are just iPhones . You know, obviously there's also cameras, you know, pathological optimists. Sometimes we'd have two cameras, sometimes we'd have no cameras, and we would just have an iPhone or a tape recorder. Are you know so you never know like it just that's that's totally different but for a feature you know I'd say somewhere between 15 and 25 days is pretty much the max for the movies that I that I do like the indie films like diarrhea teenage girl or Swiss Army Man or pretty much I've done 30 days before it's never really been worth it I don't think yet I think you get I think you either need like a lot of time or like a just a little bit about a time to make it good in terms of creativity. But that's just my experience.


You have a lot of great experiences for you Miranda is it fair to say that documentary was like a like a fantastic on ramp for you to get the experience and the stories in front of audiences that then kind of allowed you to catapult into different sort of scripted sorts of content or what what did that journey look like for you just in terms of like, actually breaking in


as a producer? I started with scripted Yes, as a director, I started with documentary Yes. So with my first documentary that I directed was called greenlit and it was supposed to be just like the behind the scenes footage of the greening of this movie called the river where I but it ended up being such a disaster and so dramatic and this whole revolts from the crew to the producers that it became its own kind of funny movie. And then you know, I just submitted it to South by for fun and got in and then went to South by as a director and was like wow, directors are treated way better than producers they go


that is awesome for you with your productions over the years like you know, you mentioned of course like below the line working with the unions of course, but above the line are folks that you've worked with over many different projects like I'm curious how have you selected and assembling your production team over the years like where did you find your people who do you bring with you from Project Project?


Well, I mean, as a director that's pretty easy like you kind of find the people that you want to work with forever you know like my composer Craig Ricci is someone that unless he's unavailable i will always use my DP your own Scharff for feature films is someone I would use he did Norman that I produced also he did June zero that's coming out this month. J. Paltrow directed and then he did my movie. Being frank that I directed but I met him through Joseph cedars film Norman that I produced, but then mark lesser has done as dp in all my documentaries that I've directed. So it's you kind of do it like that in terms of finding your kind of crew when you're producing. You really want to select the right line producer for that, that position for like the, you know, the cruise because that person will be the one to help you find whatever but the director is the one who selects their first ad. And ads are kind of dependent on what location you're in and if you're a DGA show or not a DGA show. So those kinds of kind of switch around sometimes, I mean, I have some that I love, but they're not always available. casting directors kind of like I have the ones for my directing that I like to work with. And so like my partner, Oren moverman, he also, you know, likes to use the same casting director, and like his director of photography Bobby bow kowski. But I think on other things, you know, you kind of you're kind of open editors are also nice to have in terms of like being able to, to have the one but I've never really bound one that's always available I love but I've never had one that as a as a director that I didn't love.


How are you mixing up your time these days? I mean, do you really work across the industry? Yeah, that's all you've just become a podcaster Have you ever produced?


Yes, I have a podcast called Jerry pop that I executive produced. I have a company called Cherry picks, www dot cherry picks.com which is like the female rotten tomatoes but way better. Like, if you go to our platform, it's just fantastic. It's like, you know, my goal is to make it goop meets Rotten Tomatoes meets the cut, you know, meets Amazon.


That's incredible. I mean, so Okay. Okay, so there's that. But then also you have a distribution business as well. Can you like to dig into this? Like, what was the necessity that created you? What necessitated that? Like, why do that? I mean, you've already been producing and directing. Like why distribution as well? Well, what


I should have started distributing before I did anything else, because then I would have learned what not to have made and why it didn't work. And now I know but did well, why I have it now and why I started are two different reasons. So we started the film arcade originally when things started going day by date, and nothing was going straight to theaters anymore. There was this period of time there was like a, like a three year period of time. That's when I did super with James Gunn. And we'd sold it to IFC. And they went day and day. And what that did was it killed our box office. And then all of our foreign sales renegotiated which really screwed us financially. And that was when I was like, I need Africa and so many artists really want to have their movies seen in theaters. I'm all for dandy. Like I wish I could have been Frank the movie I directed go day and date. But Phil arcades deal with Universal at the time, there was a 90 day theatrical window because like everything kind of changed. So that's where we originally started, it was like kind of bringing theatrical back for indie films, giving Andy fellows an opportunity to actually create some sort of box office to keep their foreign sales in place. And also they you know, what was happening was kind of anyone was putting you it was just that it was getting flooded. The VOD the video on demand like DirecTV at the time, there wasn't like streaming that was just getting flooded. Because until they made this like rule where you had to have 10 theatricals difference city's top 10 markets, the actual so by that time, that was good for us, because we were already in that market. Right. So we were already able to do the theatrical and get it, whatever. So we were able to like service deals out for a lot of studios too. So they would pay us to release their movies theatrically. And then they would put them on video on demand day and dates, now that they could keep them in the rock, like in the lineup, because they had 10 theatrical spots. But there was this three year period of time where it didn't matter. And just everything was just going out there. And you never knew, you know what, what you're watching or where to watch it or anything, because the PNA spend was so different, and you didn't have to buy ads and all these, it was just kind of crazy. I mean, look, if there's one thing that's consistent about the entertainment business is that no one knows what the hell we're doing. And everything is constantly changing. And once you finally get the hang of something, something new comes along to destroy it.


You know, I'm really curious, like, are people just gonna be watching theatrical experiences in High Definition goggles in five years? Like, maybe so and what does that mean? How is that going to work?


Right? Live? Do you experience that way?


Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, like the story is at the core of this, right? Like, there is the studio system, you have studios being acquired by large technology companies, distribution modalities are changing how people are paying for stories has changed. Things are constantly shifting, there's AI, there's all these things happening, we're coming, hopefully to the tail end of the strikes like And yet, for you, as a distributor, as a producer, as a director, story has been central to your career, maybe that's the only thing. Strangely, that doesn't change, even though every story is kind of slightly different if they're novel in some way. Like for you. You mentioned a little while ago that you kind of wish you had inverted your career and started as a distributor to figure out what audiences want


was a businesswoman at heart. Yeah, those two in my brain, like my heart is in our right brain as a business person. So you know,


yeah. How have you balanced that? And like, what, what have you learned?


I mean, one, one foot in front of the other? Yeah, it's kind of what's in front of you and what has to be done. I mean, as an artist, as an artist, if there's anything that I could, like, tell anyone, it's like, don't wait for someone else to make your life happen. Because that doesn't. It doesn't really work like that. I mean, there's the stories that you hear about, which is like, like the same as the lottery winners, you hear about,


totally, I mean, every overnight success is like 20 years in the making. Yeah,


totally. Yes, many years ago. I'll be there sometime I promise.


And so for you though, like when you're thinking about finding a story, or like committing to a project, like how long does this take like how much of your time is going to this? I mean, you have a limited number of figs to pull from the tree like what for you


have a limited number of Facebook, right? That's the thing. And there is no such thing as how much time it takes each. I mean, super took one year. I've been on raised eyebrows for 12 years, and it still isn't made. And we jumped in Russia and Sienna Miller and Oren moverman And, you know, we had to add all the money, and then it went away. Like, it just you just don't know, like, I kind of I know, this is a weirdly spiritual thing to say. But I kind of feel like every project is its own essence. And it will get made when it is ready. As long as you're, you know, constantly there to kind of do the work. But, you know, things like wounds like that took like 10 years. I mean, I'm rewriting the same script I'm on. I'm on draft 48. I have a script right now that I will finally turn in on Friday, that will finally go out, you know, but things just take a very long time. And sometimes things happen overnight. So you just don't know. There is no one way. So you just have to have patience, really? And play long term games, but not Yeah, persistence is you'll have to stick around. And if you stick around enough, worst case scenario, you learn how to lose everything really well. Okay, which is fun. Okay, it was just fun. And then you learn by learning how to lose everything. You learn how to not lose things. So I've been fortunate enough to have successful films over the last six, seven years, because of all of the mistakes that I made for 10 years,


can you dig into some of those big mistakes, what you learned, like, and yeah, how that is,


you're not gonna sell your movie for $10 million, and you're not going to be nominated for an Oscar no matter what you think. Right. And, and that, if you don't like the people that you're working with, at the beginning, it gets worse, it gets really, really bad. So start off liking people, because inevitably, someone is going to be a horrible human being on the project. So you have to love the project so much that it doesn't matter if it succeeds, or if it fails. But you had a really good time. Right? And that you're really proud of what you made. And that's all that matters. Don't ever do anything for the money. Because there really isn't any money in it. I mean, there can be. But that's just like an aftereffect. It's not real money. It's not like it's not like the kind of money you would get in a corporate job. At a studio or at a, you know, streamer, you're not going to make that being an independent film producer or director or, you know, solvent, film, independent distributor, independent publisher, whatever. If you're independent, it's a grind. And you gotta love it.


I mean, how much of your time is like thinking about like, Okay, this different state as a different film production incentive. And this, this story is available to us in this short window of like, how much of this is operational work versus like, Hey, I'm an artist, I'm thinking about the story. I'm thinking, how do you balance that?


I think they're similar. I think if you're thinking about where it should be shot, you, you know, you're thinking about what the movie is going to look like. And then you take that idea, that creative idea, and you go, Okay, what's the most cost effective way for me to do this? So that's kind of how you pick this date. But how much of my time is thought? I mean, I don't think 29 hours a day. You know, what else is there? Think about it? I have three freaking companies and 25 movies. I don't know.


Yeah, totally. How about something


unless you're golfing? And then you have to clear your mind. Are you the golfer I tried to be but then I tore my rotator cuff. So I missed the season. I'm really stressed out right now, Cameron,


and just have to stick with filmmaking. It is an athletic endeavor. There's no doubt I mean, so here's a question for you. How important has the kind of independent filmmaking community been to your career versus like, just buckling down and writing or producing or what is the mix?


It's all independent filmmaking. That's all there is no x. It's all it's all one. Everything is I independently write and produce x direct. I don't really. I mean, I just set up a show on Netflix and shut up and set up and then the strike happened. And you know, obviously I've sold lots of movies to you know Independent Distributors. These are our studios, but I've always made them independently. That's just because I don't like really working for anyone but myself though.


On a directing side, you know how you make directorial choices that not only serve your narrative, but also then streamline your production process? It's like you have a certain number of days, you've got a certain budget, how do you go about dealing with those constraints?


Well, normally there's other producers there with me. So on being frank, you know, I had imagined I was a financier, production partner. And there were producers on that line budget, and like, you just you know, you deal with how many days do I have Jim Gaffigan? How many days do I have? How many days? Do I have this? How much money do you have? And you kind of put it back there? I definitely did. I mean, I thought I was gonna shoot it in Big Bear. And I ended up shooting in New York. So yeah, just you never know, you got to kind of be flexible, like what doesn't bend breaks. And that is true. And any director who is stomping their feet on the ground, if so the way something has to be which I have done at times, and half of the time, it's worth it. Now the other half the time it was not worth it. But you got to get you got it's a compromise. It's everybody working together. Like there's no, the directing is just one part of the cog. It's a very big part of the cog, it's a vision. But your goal as a director is to work really well with the cast and the crew, and the producers in order to get everybody to create the same thing. At least for me anyway,


can you share some tips on how you collaborate with your technical or production teams to make your visions happen?


Yes, I listened to them. And I don't think that everything, everything, that's my idea is the best idea. You know, hiring people smarter than you is always good. people you admire, it's kind of like when you play pool, like if you play pool with someone who kind of sucks, your game kind of sucks. And if you play pool with someone who's way better than you suddenly, like you're knockin, like three balls in a row into the corner pocket. So it's like, if you can do that with film, and hire an editor that you really admire, and a DP that you really admire and actors that you really admire, you know, then you know that it's a collaboration. But you can't be intimidated by these people, either. I've seen that happen to directors that I've produced as well. And that's, that's when you know, there's a dip. There's kind of this fine line between knowing what you want, and getting what you want, right? Because there's ways to get what you want, without letting anyone know that and letting you know, kind of organically happen. That everyone feels part of it.


I mean, what is your style as a director? How do you get what you want?


I make everybody think it's their idea. I led them to come up with the idea. And I'm like, That's a great idea. Let's try it.


You mentioned a little bit earlier that like, you know, you learned something about this business, it changes I mean, for you in having built a distribution business. Can you walk us through today how you're thinking about a solid, smart, best distribution strategy for the projects that you are doing?


Yeah, it's really tough right now. I will say it's really not like we did, we sold an unknown country, which was a new film starring Lily Gladstone, and everyone will know who she is. As soon as Martin Scorsese comes out. We sold a music box and for not a lot of money, but they did an incredible job. And then again, the movie was made for like $1 or two. So there's not a lot of money out there for buying right now. They're just there isn't. And there isn't even one in the studios. I mean, there was just a buy for $6 million at TIFF. Netflix is like a third movie, but like $6 million for Netflix is like zero about you. They made the movie for 16 Maybe 20. So I think, I mean, for me, whatever. There's this thing called foreign sales, I don't really know how important it is anymore. Based on streaming and theatrical and all this stuff. It's constantly shifting, but they used to have this and we still have it but you know, they'd be like the highest thing you think you can get for your movie outside of the US, your what you're asking prices. And then what your worst case scenario is and it took me too long to learn this, but always make it for less than your worst case scenario without us and if you can do that, you'll probably get your investors money back and their premium. And if you go into profit, that's a cherry on top,


you know across Acting, producing, distributing, writing all of it the full gamut. Do you have any specific examples of substantial production challenges you faced? And can you talk about how you have managed them, and how you overcame them?


Yes, there's always a substantial production challenge that you must overcome on every movie no matter what position you're in. So that's just gonna happen. But I mean, I've lost locations the day before, I've lost cast members a week before, I've lost the money in the middle of shooting. Um, we've had COVID, we've had strikes. So there's never not really a problem. I think what you just have to do is, keep a cool head, and not be afraid to pause and go home again, just let's figure this out. Because emotions run really high with art, and people's visions, whether it's your own, or someone you're supporting as a producer. And how can you I mean, that's actually what I really love about making movies, to be honest, is the problems and solving them. If only I was as good as that, and calculus or whatever, like, you know, I would have been a neuroscientist or something. But I would have triggered some sort of dementia by now. But


What were these new notes getting? Sorry? I like the problems actually, they make it exciting. But they always get solved. That's the thing is, it's like, your everything is always figured out at all.


Always. It is, you just have to be open one way or the other, you just have to be open to letting that answer come in.


For you. Lightning round. What are your kind of production hacks? They're not hacks? There's never a hack in production. But you know, like, what are the things that you do? Or rituals that you have on your sets? To kind of make life easier? Like, are you? You mentioned as a director, you know, letting people kind of come to their own conclusions and have their own ideas? But are there like rituals or things on set that you think are just kind of unique to your style of filmmaking?


Oh, yeah, let me go back on that. And on the on the ideas that that was also that's kind of was a little bit more for performance, and a little bit more for camera stuff, like, well, camera stuff, like, you know, we plan all that out beforehand, or like least I do, as a director, and then your plan inevitably goes to shit, because you don't have time to do that. So then you kind of know what you should do to get what you need, but you let yourself kind of feed that through that way. So just so you know, it's like, there is a plan and blocking, I think, blah, I like personally, I prefer and this probably because I'm an actor, it's started on stage, I prefer to block my actors, and then let them work on the scene. Whereas I know a lot of directors, I've worked on a lot of movies as an actor, where there'll be like, Okay, you guys feel it out. And the cameras are watching and everyone's watching. And to me, that's a waste of time. It's like, okay, this is where she's going to be, where he's going to be, what the camera movies are going to be? Okay, now you guys make it work. Right. And that seems to work well with the actors. And if there's something that gets stuck, and I know how it can be fixed, that's how I can kind of curve them into figuring out how to fix it themselves. But what are my hacks which would always spend money on a good first ad? And always, you know, because your schedule is constantly going to change, and always spend money on good food. Those are the two kinds of things you can't really live without.


Absolutely. I like that for you. What are new trends or tools? What are your go to books, resources, sources for spiritual inspiration to keep pushing and going keep making stuff in this business?


I don't know if I have any sources. Like I think what I think is a really great resource for people is our labs. You know, whether it's Sundance lab or the film independent lab or any kind of script writing lab, I think contests, filmmaking contests are great. I think the script contests are great. I think they really help you. I think the blacklist as a writer, you know, is I mean, I haven't put my personal stuff up on there. But that's always something I advise the people that I mentor or coach is to do that is to, you know, get feedback from, you know, pay for feedback, basically, because people who are your friends, you're either gonna get pissed off when they tell you what you don't want to hear. Or they're not going to tell you what you want to hear. Or they're only going to tell you what you want to hear. So it's like, you know, if you want it, if you really, really want it to be the best you can be, you kind of want fresh eyes. And that's the same with editing. Yeah, the same was like having a test with real feedback. And I don't mean like a Hollywood test grading with like, random strangers, where they, you know, big movies do I mean, like a test screening with, you know, producers who invite their people and crafts and crew who provide their people and you fill out a thing. And that's, you know, really helpful, confirming what you already know, isn't working.


That's awesome. Well, Miranda, I want to give you an opportunity to plug all of the cool, amazing stuff that you're doing with your businesses so that people can find you watch your movies and get engaged with all of the amazing stuff you're doing in the community. So let it rip, tell us where we can find you.


Okay, so in terms of distributing, one of the things that I started is called the carousel program. It's out of the film arcade. And it's for indie filmmakers, to basically self release their films, without paying any overhead fees, without paying any interest fees, without having to pay for a poster that you don't want. On a fee that you don't actually know it was spent with and you get your movie back in three years. So check out the film arcade.com. And that is for movies for under $2 million, so that they can get up on Apple, Amazon, basically every single platform VOD and you're in full control as a filmmaker, for what you can do. And we just are there to help you. That's that. And then I'm watching a movie that comes out in a couple of weeks. But I think it's October 21 or 22nd. And it's a Hebrew language film. It's called Jun zero, and is directed by Jacob Paltrow. Yes, going to fall through his brother. And no, he does not speak Hebrew. But yes, we shot it in Hebrew. And it's really, really good. And the trailer should be released. I think by the end of this week, by Cohen media group who's releasing it, it's going to be theatrical. We just got unknown country up on iTunes, and all that stuff through the music box, it just had its theatrical run, it's got like, I think a 99 If not 100% score on Rotten Tomatoes, and then cherry picks as well. So check it out. It's called an unknown country. And it went on to say it opened at South by Southwest. And the star is the girl who is going to be nominated for an Oscar for Best Actress this year. So go see it, so you know who she is before you see her come out and see a Martin Scorsese movie. And then for female and non binary critics and entertainment writers on our scoring system of what movies we like, it's the cherry picks.com. That's for if anyone wants to get you to financing and PNA we are raising money for what may you may have seen come out left in the news last week, a new TV series called unconventional, which we're putting out on video on demand so that we can accurately report to all of the artists and actors and financiers, as opposed to some of the streaming services that are having funky Hollywood, mathematics to them to their, you know, reporting.


Can you dig into that a little bit? Like what's the story there? I was reading about it. I think it was in Deadline before we jumped on.


So we shot an independent film and a TV show, and it's really, really good. Is that Bobet bridge, isn't it that Kathy Griffin, it's got an incredible cast. And you know, if this was, you know, four years ago, and actually, you know, just before the pandemic, I mean, the pitch was something Netflix did want and we decided to make it independently. So we get on most of it, right? Foreign wise and everything like that, because we can make it for a lot less. And then people would be able to participate in the actual ownership of it. The people who acted on it, wrote it, directed etc. But I don't know if you notice where the country is going right now. But there's a lot of anti LBGT Q laws that are happening now since corporations own the streamers and they own the studios. That is half of the country in their mind. As you know kind of audience and they are now, you know, pulling back on shaking up anything because, for instance, what happened at target this year with pride. It was picketed, and they had to take all their pride stuff down. Right. So Hollywood's on a shaky ground anyway. And these corporations who own Hollywood are deciding what, you know what, what to do and what not to do. It just does the easiest thing like don't rock any boats or, you know, no, we don't want to get anyone canceled. And we don't want to be boycotted, and we don't want to do this. And it's just ridiculous. The feedback that we got, I mean, it's a good show. So you'll see it, we're gonna release it in the first quarter, probably around Valentine's Day. It's a great show. And it's nine episodes, and maybe they thought it was too expensive to buy. That's also possibly true, because it looks really good. Like, you know, Swiss Army Man we made for under three, God's contract with Tandy Newton, we made for 2 million, we sold it for four. So people are always surprised by how much we can make something look good. So maybe, maybe they all thought that the amount of money that they have to spend to buy it and the amount of money that they have to spend to market it, would it be worth it, but it would have been at the same time, if they marketed it, it would have affected half of their subscribers, right? Possibly in their mind. Because it's like very sexy, and it's, it's all it's all LGBTQ characters. Like, there's not any strange Oscars like not, it's not a straight story. And there's not just like one character who's like the best friend good, you know, like, and is that really crazy? It's not like a sitcom that just has one joke after another, that's inappropriate. So it's, you know, really, right. I'm excited for it, because I kind of wanted to release it myself anyway. But we were doing it, but we had financial partners, and we're like, Okay, well, we'll sell it to Netflix, we'll make some money, fine. No big deal. But we took it to a handful of distributors, not a lot. And when we started getting the feedback of love, we really loved this show. But, you know, if it had less gay characters, it's like, well, that's the whole show. That's the part you love about it. Those are the characters you love. We're like, well, we don't want to alienate half our subscribers based on what's going on right now. And it's a little extra near it's like, Whoa, I just realized that I was like, let's not keep going. Let's not try to go like a logo or something. I mean, gay people don't even look at logos. Where are you?


Where's it gonna be?


It's gonna be on video on demand. It'll be everywhere. It'll be just like a movie. It'll be at it. The thing that's funny is, and I think people know this, but they forget. You can buy any TV show on Apple or Google or Amazon. I say I watched Yellowstone. I don't have Paramount plus, I just bought the season. Downton Abbey, I didn't have PBS or whatever, I bought Downton Abbey on iTunes. So you'll be able to buy Unconventional on iTunes, you know, and then in February, and you'll be able to buy a full season. Steven Soderbergh just did his own TV show and released it himself. But you have released it on his old website, because he's not a distributor, so you didn't have the ability to put it up. Everywhere. So you have to go to Steven Soderbergh's website, which I highly recommend that you do, because it's a super cool show 799 for the whole season, it's awesome. And I think that we are at the beginning of Independent Television. And I think that's a good thing about these strikes. And I am very excited that our cast and crew who participate will actually get to see how many people bought it, how many people rented it, you know, as opposed to this Writers Guild deal to just happen like, well, out of the top performing shows, we'll let you see 20% of those shows. And you may or may not be able to participate in that. It's like, it's all just, if you look at the language of the WGA contract with what they're signing away, and they're agreeing to. Yeah, it opens the door, but it is nowhere near transparency. Like it's not even close. Miranda,


are we in a renaissance? Or are we close to one?


When aren't we? I mean, I remember whenever there was filming where I was like, oh, let's use the red never wanted I had to have this whole conversation with Liam Schreiber to probably have the digital was just as good as as villainy almost two days before the movie decided not to do it because it was gonna be shot on a red and I had to convince him that we have Nancy Shriver who's you know the best of luck in DP in the world shooting in that he's gonna be fine. And look at it now. You can't even shoot on film, although June zero was shot on Super 16 I'm really really glad it wasn't They're for the day that we had 69 setups I love it with this oh


my god well Miranda Miranda Bailey Thank you for being on on production really appreciate your time


you bet thanks so much Cameron

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