Union Rules, Rates, and Roadblocks with Ida Lee Henderson

Cameron Woodward

Welcome back to On Production, a podcast brought to you by Wrapbook. Today, we're diving into one of the toughest areas for producers today, navigating the complexities of paying union workers, staying compliant and keeping budgets accurate and on track. Our guest today is Ida Lee Henderson, a widely respected production accountant whose career has spanned both film and television across the globe. She's worked on films like Rudy and Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes as well as acclaimed television series like Brothers and Sisters and more. Beyond her onset expertise, she's become a mentor and teacher training countless accountants who've gone on to become leaders in the industry. Ida Lee brings a rare combination of hands-on experience and a deep commitment to training the next generation of production accountants. Today, she joins us to share her perspective on the financial realities of what shapes every production.

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from navigating union rules to keeping payroll and budgets on track. And also of course, how producers can set themselves up for long-term success. Welcome to the show, Ida Lee.

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Ida Lee Henderson (01:05.415)

Thank you, Cameron. It's really great to be here.

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Cameron Woodward (01:08.076)

So let's start with your background. What first drew you to production accounting and how did your career evolve from major studio films to then mentoring others in the field?

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Ida Lee Henderson (01:19.551)

Well, what drew me to production accounting is I love film. I am a huge old movie buff. You know, I would actually even in grade school. Sometimes I would ditch school and stay home and watch all the afternoon movies. I just love, I love movies. And so I actually joined the industry kind of later in life. I was in my, I was about 30. And I just decided I had a bookkeeping, had a

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degree in business administration and I had bookkeeping background and everybody needs bookkeepers. So maybe I could do that in this area that I love. And one thing led to another and here I am. I mean, the main thing about production accounting for me is that it never gets boring. know, bookkeeping for a large company, I had moved up to being a controller for a

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company that had retail outlets in four states and it just was boring. Learning the latest cash register innovation really just wasn't very exciting. So for me, the reason I've been at it over 30 years is because it's always new and interesting and exciting. have to learn something on every single project that I do. So I just love it.

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Cameron Woodward (02:41.25)

And the second part of my question was, how did that then evolve into you being such a well-known mentor in the community?

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Ida Lee Henderson (02:49.423)

Well, I did have some background in teaching adult education classes and managing your personal finances and things like that before I ever came into the business. And once I did come into the business, I saw there was very little consistency. People tend to learn from whoever got them started in the business. And sometimes they think that way is the only way because they just haven't been exposed to other ways of doing it. I with my, you know,

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background as a corporate controller and just the fact that I constantly am thinking what's a more efficient way to do that. I would often be able to find ways for people to do their jobs more easily and that just led into teaching them that and then teaching the next step and people would come to me and tell me that they wanted to do what I do. They wanted to, we used to call it sit in the big chair. I want to sit in the big chair and.

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And I love that, people who are ambitious and want to learn, I want to teach. So I just enjoyed that. And it's still extremely gratifying to me, all the people out there in the business who take the time to let me know the impact I've made on their career. it's just part of who I am, I guess is how you could say it.

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Cameron Woodward (04:06.413)

That's awesome, idly. So pivoting back a little bit to your career as the accountant in the big chair, as you said, I know that you've been able to work internationally across film and television. And you even mentioned just a moment ago that you're constantly learning every production is sort of different. What unique challenges would you say that you've seen when it comes to managing budgets and payroll across such production environments?

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Ida Lee Henderson (04:35.743)

Well, know, one of the challenges, the best way to budget and to manage a production is to think ahead as much as you can to anticipate what you may encounter along the way and be prepared for it before it comes. Sometimes in our environment, that's not possible. There can be a last minute change that, you you may have been going along this path, we're going to film this project.

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with these people in this place and that's what you've been budgeting for six months and all of a sudden it's like, well, we just got this incentive in this other country and so now we're going there. And so you don't have as much time to gear up and be as prepared as you can, both the producers, the studio, everybody, when you make a sharp pivot.

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And again, the way that I try to do everything is just to learn as much as I can and get in front of it. If I'm going to a different country, what is their incentive? What are the rules of their incentive? What are the crews like? How do they pay? know, people are paid very differently in different parts of the world. You know, you just have to try to get in front of the information flow as best you can and adapt as quickly as you can.

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even under, I mean, that's the name of our business, right? Constant adaptation, constant change. So, you know, I think sometimes people get locked in, oh, oh my God, now we have to pivot and they get locked in the, in the upset about that rather than just taking it and moving on and okay, now what do we need to learn? So just being quick on your feet is the best way to cope with any of it, yeah.

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Cameron Woodward (06:18.425)

That seems to be a real and true trait, regardless of the role that a person has on set, whether they're in the production team, the production accounting team, regardless. One of the biggest stress points that I've heard come up over and over again for producers is, you know, maybe this is no surprise being that I work at an entertainment payroll company, but it's along the lines of figuring out how to ensure compliance when paying union workers. From your perspective though in the field, what

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makes that such a persistent challenge.

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Ida Lee Henderson (06:52.137)

Well, again, first and foremost, it's that thinking ahead. The studio, the accounting team, the producing team, they have to be in front of it and know which contracts are we operating under, right? I've seen shows get set up in payroll under the complete wrong contract. And then your first batch of payroll comes through and it's like, you know, what is this? You know, this should be after, you know, 12 hours worked, not 12 hours elapsed or, you know, whatever this issue may be.

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The biggest issue I've seen with compliance is just making sure you all are on the same page as to what contracts are being followed. You know, is it, is it, you know, high budget SVOD? Is it just the basic? What is, what is it? You know, which contract are we using? So that's first and foremost. I've found, you know,

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Once you have that established, really haven't ever had any problems with compliance. The only other issues with compliance are timely, Certainly, you know...

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we have to pay payroll on time. And if we don't, then we open ourselves to grievances from the various locals. So the next biggest challenge is kind of falls on accounting shoulders. We have to do whatever we can to pay people on time. And I've seen in the past few years, some people have been like.

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We have to get the crew paid, right? Because they're going to show up every day. But the actors sometimes don't know because their checks go to their agents and they may not know. And so we'll maybe put SAG aside and pay them late. But again, SAG is on top of it. You're going to get huge penalties if you do that. yeah, compliance is our responsibility as well. And of course,

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Ida Lee Henderson (08:35.759)

The bulk of it though does fall on the payroll company and making sure, you know, I've gotten that notification before, know, DGA saying that the contributions haven't been made on behalf of the employees on a particular show. And, you know, we have to obviously dig in and find out what the problem was. You know, 95 % of the time they have been paid. It just hasn't been recorded. You know, I know Wrapbook and the other payroll companies understand their

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responsibility with compliance and I personally, I haven't had issues on the payroll side.

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Cameron Woodward (09:11.265)

Well, Ida Lee, you wouldn't, but our audience is for producers who may. you know, and to that effect, mean, you know, you and I, think both know, but for the sake of, of our audience or for those that are curious, you know, there can be ripple effects that are the result of inaccurate rates or budgeting mistakes. Can you share examples from, you know, your just experience in this field?

certainly of course not your own productions, but what you've heard from students or others of how even small errors in budgeting or rate setting can impact a production.

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Ida Lee Henderson (09:48.669)

Yeah, again, it goes back to the same thing. We all have to know what contract we're using and make sure you've budgeted for that contract and that everybody knows. It's one thing if the accountant has the budget right, but the people on the front line hiring, the production manager and department heads don't, right? So it can get very confusing and sometimes we'll have employees come in and say, no, that's not my rate, this is my rate.

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Okay, well, this is what your union tells us is your scale. I'm a big one for, know, we're very fortunate that we help each other and we have great tools that help us to know rates, but just because it's in a tool doesn't mean it's correct. I'm a big person for if you're going somewhere, get and read the contract.

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If you're a smaller independent production and you are actually negotiating the contract, make sure you have another contract as your guide and that you're hitting all of those key points in your negotiation so that there isn't a question about how people are to be paid in future. You know, what is the rest period? What are the meal penalties? know, is it, do you go into overtime after so many hours worked or is it elapsed? Which is it? The clearer that management can get from day one,

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the less likely it is that you're going to have any issues.

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Cameron Woodward (11:02.369)

I think that you've spoken to this just a moment ago, but I'll rephrase the question because I think that there's an insight here that I'm really trying to get to for the production audience here, which is, you mentioned, of course, work with a great accountant, work with a good payroll company so that you really flatten the chance for these sort of compliance issues to emerge, you know, but are there any practical steps or things that you've seen in your career that you would say...

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really allow the relationship with the production accounting office and the production team's office to work really well together. What's your operating procedure between production and the accounting office to make sure that a production, regardless of its scale, operates really well?

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Ida Lee Henderson (11:48.959)

Well, that's a really good point. We do have to work as a team and unfortunately, sometimes the production and accounting will take an adversarial kind of pose. So for me, when I start on any production, the...

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The first people that I have to really get teamwork with is the production manager, the production office coordinator and their staff and make sure that we really are listening to one another and understanding each other's needs. As a lead accountant, meet with the obviously UPM every day, the production office coordinator at least once a day. And I meet with the department heads and the people who are hiring in the field as well, the best boys, the department heads. I go out and create a relationship.

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with those people so that they know if they do have a question, can call me or they can call our payroll accountant and get answers from us that we're there to serve them, we're there to help them, that there's no way it goes smoothly unless we all work together. So relationships, and relationships are everything in our business, honestly. And I believe me over the years, I've gotten that very wrong at times and have paid for it and learned better.

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Cameron Woodward (13:03.179)

Yeah, I mean, again, I'm a sort of a production payroll accounting nerd, but in a previous life before being a nerd on these subjects, you know, I would make commercials and I would do some short films. And as I personally have come to learn more about this body of work, it's like, I think a lead accountant, like somebody like you on a large production is like the first AD. It's just, it's not moving human resources around on schedule and on budget. It's like,

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overseeing the entire flow of funds across this entire massive operation. And I make that relationship because I think like in a producer's mind, you're like, well, of course the first AD is like so important to the production, which is like, yes, that's obvious, but so too, like if you have a great accounting organization, it's just as essential. It's just as important. It's just as like directly responsible for getting to the end of the production.

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Cameron Woodward (14:01.747)

in a really powerful and successful way. And it is what you're saying, trust.

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Ida Lee Henderson (14:04.553)

Yeah, and it's our job. Yeah, and it's our job to make sure that everybody on that production have the financial tools that they need to do their jobs. The last thing they should be having to stress about or worry about is are they getting their paycheck or is there...

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P card maxed out or any of those things. If an accounting stays in front of that and really takes the point of view of like, listen, I'm here to make your life easier, not harder. And yes, we have protocols that have to be followed. You have to fill out start paperwork in order for me to pay you. I'm sorry, but it has to be done. And you need to turn in your receipts and reconcile your P card in order for me to be able to refresh it. But if we come at them with more of a, you know,

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What is the obstacle? How can I help overcome that? What can we do to make this happen so that we can give you what you need and you no longer have to worry about this stuff? That's a big part of it. Again, is that cooperation and relationship, which is part of why I go meet with people and get a one-on-one relationship as best I can. Because they're much more likely to say, know, accounting doesn't mean to be a pain, but yeah, we have to do this thing, so let's just get it done.

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if they have a relationship with you rather than demonize this. Why do they make everything so hard?

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Cameron Woodward (15:26.041)

but you've trained and mentored many production accountants. What skills or habits do you believe are most essential for accountants and producers to build that sort of strong, compliant financial set of best practices on set?

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Ida Lee Henderson (17:23.453)

Yes, and the other or another skill that is just required is, again, trying to get in front of things as much as possible, anticipating what's going to happen. I'm a big one for saying to my team, hey, this isn't our first rodeo. We know what's going to happen. People are going to come in and say, well, I can't do this. Well, let's take care of that. Let's anticipate that. Let's make sure that we meet that need before they even have it.

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So anticipating and just adaptability, being able to, yes, you have this in mind and that's direction you're going. And then I've been places where we went to a location because of a tax incentive, for example, and we were told that there was sufficient crew and then you get there and there there aren't, there aren't crew and you end up having to bring people in at the last minute and deal with.

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the challenges that that brings, finding housing, making sure that maybe you didn't even have a contract with that particular union that you need that person from, because now you have to bring them from LA and you thought you were gonna have a complete ASA crew, things like that. Anticipate as much as you can, research as much as you can, but be able to adapt on a dime and in a not panicked way.

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If that makes sense. In a way that people feel, hey, yes, this is a left turn, but we got this. Together we can do this. We got this. Instead of some people rant and rave and run out of offices. We all have emotions, especially in this business, because there can be some very, very high stress situations. But as best we can. Believe me, again, a lifelong lesson here.

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I wasn't always able to do that either, so I'm not throwing any stones here.

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Cameron Woodward (19:21.101)

Ideli, this industry is always evolving. How have you seen technology change the way production accountants and producers approach compliance, budgeting, rate management, the whole kit and caboodle?

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Ida Lee Henderson (19:38.087)

Well, you know, it has changed a lot and it did not change fast enough, in my opinion. There were digital processes available to us that we could have tried and experimented with and had our growing pains with prior to the pandemic. But, this industry is also very slow to change. You know, it's very hard. We have to come in, hit the ground running, get it done really fast. So when you talk about changing technology for people, eugh.

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You know, they get frightened by that. They don't wanna change accounting software. They don't wanna change payroll providers. You know, I know people who have worked their entire career at one studio, even though they're earning less than their counterparts elsewhere, just because they don't wanna change. know, so technology is very challenging for us. Obviously COVID brought tremendous changes in how our workflow functions. I think at first people thought, it was just going to be a couple of months and then I'm to go back to doing it the way that I used to. And as we all know, that did not happen. And the digital storage and all of that is here to stay. I personally was a huge advocate for digital start paperwork years before that and trying to get people to give it a try simply because

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Again, I think efficiently, how efficient is it when you have to have, you have to hire someone in payroll, a second clerk, just to run around and track after people to try to get their paperwork done. You know, hey, you turned everything in, but you don't have your box rental inventory. And so you have to chase after them. I'm sorry, you want me to do that over? Can you hear?

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Yeah, so like, you know, how crazy is it that you have to hire an extra person in the payroll department and maybe a second clerk just to run around after people to get the forms they haven't filled out yet? You know, it happened over and over again. And I kept saying, if we used digital start work, they'd have, you know, they couldn't move on to the next step until they had done that. So I'm a big proponent. So I'll just say that upfront because I know some people are not and they find these tools.

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cumbersome and difficult. And frankly, they have been at first, you you have one login for your purchase order program and one login for your signature approvals and another one for the payroll, the digital payroll. you know, it was obviously, it was really hard on accounting to learn and adapt to all these tools, but it was equally hard on the producers and the production managers who were trying to keep up with all of the paperwork they're responsible for viewing and approving.

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and not, know, God, which one is it? And many times I would have to, you know, come into the producer's office and show them the login again and, you know, and how to filter it down to just the ones they needed to approve and things like that. the benefit though is, you know, your production manager who might be out on a scout all day and in the old days they'd come back to a stack, you know, three feet high of things to approve.

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But now they can do it on their iPad sitting on the bus between locations. it's been really good and very difficult for people to adapt. There are technological changes absolutely coming in accounting. The next big one that I see happening as soon as we can get it to where it's somewhat affordable is invoice matching.

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Again, this is something that has been with large companies for many years where they have a company mailbox, the vendors send their invoices into that mailbox. The mail is opened with artificial intelligence and the invoice is viewed, the invoice is matched to a PO. And if it matches the PO, it goes straight through for payment because the PO has the approvals.

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Ida Lee Henderson (23:50.831)

And if it doesn't match, then that gets filtered off to where a human can then pick it up and resolve the problems. So that's the next big shift that I see happening.

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Cameron Woodward (24:02.199)

That one's certainly coming in. We have that at, at Wrapbook. I think others will follow and it does make sense because AP automation is in other corporate accounting solutions. It's in other AP automation flows, but yeah, you're right. Both the PO approval flow from the origination point on set flowing all the way through to the production accounting system, rather than being two separate POs. One. And then two.

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Cameron Woodward (24:31.669)

like project-based invoice inboxes where then you can like pull in the header information off of a PDF. Like you're totally right. Like this process of having multiple clerks sitting there and just entering in not just double times, sometimes quadruple times, right? Like a production PO to an accounting PA to like, it's sort of unbelievable that the friction in that workflow.

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Ida Lee Henderson (24:57.449)

Yeah, yeah, sometimes I look back on the way we did it when I first started, and it's shocking we got anything done. It really is. So yeah, that's a big one. And then automating the filing system as well. These systems will be able to put the invoices directly into your accounting system. mean,

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I love the idea that in future you won't have to go to Box or any other place to look for stuff. you're in your accounting system, you just click on that vendor, everything will be there, whether it's paid or pending, and we'll have it all at our fingertips. That's the future.

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Cameron Woodward (25:39.03)

And the, and the, call it OCR, but that's basically AI or machine learning or optical character recognition. Like it should also tell you like, Hey, the receipt that you attached to this invoice and purchase order is the wrong one. Like, you know, yes, humans need to be fully in control to be able to approve all of it. But like we, if we have smart notifications and smart, like alerts to the production accounting team, it can save so much time and so much pain.

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Ida Lee Henderson (26:10.065)

Absolutely, and you know, I've been around a long time and in my experience, innovation in our industry comes slowly, at least on the infrastructure side. It's really fast on the creative side, but on the infrastructure side, it comes slowly.

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I know AI is going to enable us to have a lot of systems function more easily. But at the same time, I keep saying, I'm not going to worry about AI until I can ask one of my voice controlled devices a question and they actually know what I'm talking about. When that happens, when that part becomes really easy, then I'll start to worry about where AI is going. But until then, not there yet. They're not that smart yet.

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Cameron Woodward (26:51.575)

So talking about digital transformation at Wrapbookk, we just launched an online rate finder tool to help producers or accountants look up union rates really quickly. From your opinion, why is having like a fast, accurate access to something like that valuable to a producer or to an accountant?

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Ida Lee Henderson (27:14.143)

Well, the most valuable thing about that is the fact that we are often asked to do a budget quickly, right? You there's a project that's being considered and the producer or production manager, or they may even bring an accountant in early to do the first pass on that budget. Where is it at? Where are we going to? Which contractor we under? I know when I'm doing a budget, I spend the first few days often.

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trying to get the information that I need so that I can then start to create the budget. But when it is readily available and you can just hop online and get it, it makes all the difference in the world. I can start working right away. Now, obviously, the trick about that is that many productions, especially independent productions, may be making their own contracts. So it's not fair.

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quite so easy for them. But even in that situation, even if you're a producer, you're going to go in and negotiate with the local union, you have access to what are the scale rates currently? What benefits are they receiving? When I go into my negotiation, how can I be as informed as possible to try to get the best deal that I can for my particular production? So yeah, it's invaluable.

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Cameron Woodward (28:28.331)

I think that's a really good point. Like even in a world where a side letter is written, it's a one-off negotiation. Like knowing at least the base reality of published rates is probably a really good way or a good tool to at least start working on your budget. Cause then downstream of that, where should we consider going for incentives? What do we think we should do around just resource allocation across the entire picture rather than just in this one sort of.

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So that makes a lot of sense. Idely, for listeners who'd like to learn more about you or connect further, where's the best place to find you and your work?

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Ida Lee Henderson (29:06.751)

Well, you can, obviously I'm on LinkedIn and for my educational programs it's called the School of Production Accounting and that's at www.schoolofpa.com.

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Cameron Woodward (29:20.917)

Awesome, Ida Lee. It's always a pleasure to see you. Thanks for joining me on On Production. I really appreciate, you're, you're such a thoughtful person and you know so much about the subject. So it's always invaluable time spent. thanks so much.

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Ida Lee Henderson (29:33.112)

well thanks, Cameron. It's been great having this time and getting to share more. I love it.