Josh Rogin spent more than 20 years on Capitol Hill, nearly 13 of them as a congressman's chief of staff, before moving to the Motion Picture Association, where he is Senior Vice President of Federal Government Affairs. He advocates for the MPA's member companies in front of Congress, the administration, and federal agencies on copyright, trade, technology, and tax. Tax is why he's here.

‍

In September, a bipartisan group from both chambers introduced the Motion Picture, Television, and Entertainment Revitalization Act, a federal production tax credit that starts at 20% of US labor costs and can climb to 30% with bonuses. It would apply to productions that cost more than a million dollars and shoot at least 75% of their principal photography days in the United States.

‍

And it is designed to work alongside state incentives rather than replace them. In this conversation, we'll go through what the bill would do for the people who make film and television, how a bill like this moves through Congress, what producers and crew can do about it. This is on production. I'm Cameron Woodward. Let's get into it. Thanks for joining me. I want to start with the problem, Josh. When people say production has left the country.

‍

What does that look like for the crews and the towns that depend on it?

‍

speaker-1 (01:43.928)

Thanks, Cameron. Really pleased to be here. And quite frankly, we're at a make or break moment for American film and television production. in the last couple decades, we have lost a tremendous amount of work. So we used to do about 65% of the production for movies and TVs destined for this home market. Now we only do about 39%. So it is going, and if we don't do anything about it, it'll all leave.

‍

So why is it leaving? the reason is that people in other countries have realized what kind of good business this is. this is the kind of business you desperately want to attract because it is capital intensive. There's tremendous amount of money that's invested into communities where they shoot films. So there's a lot of jobs and good jobs, well-paying jobs that you don't always need a college degree for. So countries have realized this and they have

‍

Created competitive tax environments to draw the work overseas. So a lot of work goes to Canada, a lot of work goes to the UK, Australia, South Africa. They want this business and America, we haven't done a very good job of competing on a federal level. The states have done a good job of doing what they can do. But in order for us to compete globally, we need a federal incentive to match those that are all across the world.

‍

And it doesn't need to be the best in the world, but it needs to be just needs to make our marketplace competitive again. And then the work would flow back and it would flow back to all fifty states. And and yeah, we're really excited about the about the prospects here.

‍

So you mentioned, you know, countries like UK, Canada and Australia, South Africa and more, they offer these national production incentives and the US hasn't had one. How much did that gap and a federal incentive shape where productions went?

‍

speaker-1 (03:42.742)

It's enormous. So, like I said, we've lost twenty-five percent of the production that we used to do here and it's gone right overseas. And we need an answer for that. so that's what we have achieved recently. So, you know, I think we I've been working on this for a couple years, alongside organized labor and also with our friends at IFTA that represents the independent markets about two years ago after the strikes.

‍

we all just started leaning on each other and the community in LA and throughout the country, the production. We saw the writing on the wall, and the unions have released job numbers that show jobs leaving. So we all came together and said, We need to do something about this. We need a federal incentive. So then it took us about a year and a half. A lot of folk know that the president named John Voight is ambassador to Hollywood. And, you know, a lot of people didn't pay much attention to that.

‍

But that has been John Voight has been a hero to the production economy and to Hollywood. He had multiple meetings with the president and he got the president to endorse this plan. So that is vitally important because as you know on Capitol Hill, you got to get through the president, you gotta get through two branches that are currently controlled by Republicans. So that was a a really amazing moment, and we've used that moment to catalyze action on the hill.

‍

So two weeks ago we introduced or excuse me, a month ago, we introduced bipartisan, bicameral federal incentive language that I'm happy to chat about.

‍

Yeah, I mean, actually do want to dig into this. You know, you spent twenty years on Capitol Hill. You just mentioned Ambassador Voight, but like I'm curious from your experience, how unusual is it for a bill like this to start with Republicans, Democrats, the White House, the studios, and the unions all on the same side?

‍

speaker-1 (05:34.838)

Yeah, this is what we call a bananas coalition. It's it's very strange. We have let me just lay it out there for people. The president named the bill in over oval office remarks, and that bill was introduced by Senator Tim Scott, Republican from South Carolina, and Senator Adam Schiff, Democrat from California. Now we all know the relationship between President Trump and Senator Schiff, but this issue crashes through these party barriers, and they're both happy to work with each other.

‍

And because they think this is so important. So this is a very unusual situation. We've been at this at the taping of this podcast, we've been at this about a month. And we all we already have over fifty bipartisan co-sponsors in the House bill. And these are from members from Georgia, from Kentucky, from Missouri. These are not all California and New York members because people see the benefits of this. So this is one of the most unusual bills I've ever worked on because you keep meeting meeting people that just

‍

Are attracted to the subject and it hits us in a certain place. When you know, I went to the Spider-Man movie over the summer with my wife, and I said, Hey, you know, they're not shooting that in New York. And that bothered her. And it we all like to see our hometowns on camera. We like and you know, Cameron, the the benefits that come to communities when movies and TV come to town. So this is definitely an unusual situation, but we're trying to capitalize on that.

‍

I love it. You mentioned that states have their own incentives. Obviously, our listeners here on production know that. What, in your view, have they gotten right? The states' programs and why isn't a patchwork of state programs enough on its own? Yeah.

‍

Yeah, it's just, you know, a state like Kentucky can't compete with the UK. You know, they can't Kentucky can't compete with Canada on their own. So the states have done a really good job. And there's been a lot of experiments across the states that have helped us all improve the programs, but it's not enough. So we we need the federal backstop. And then that what that does is for states like Georgia and Louisiana that have strong incentives, it supercharges those incentives.

‍

speaker-1 (07:40.152)

But for other states that might not have the strongest incentives, let's say Alabama, they do some local production down there, some independent film, but this would suddenly put Alabama on the map and have very competitive incentives. So the states just can't, they don't have the economic power or the budgets to do it by themselves. This needs to be a federal government investment.

‍

In plain terms, what would this bill do for a production that shoots in the United States?

‍

Sure. So as long as you qualify, which means you spend a million dollars on your production and you do 75% of your principal photography days here, then you essentially get a break on your you get to deduct 20% off your taxes for the amount you spent on wages. So if you spent five hundred thousand dollars on wages, you get to take twenty percent off that on your taxes. But also if you shot in a rural area, you get to take a an additional five percent off. If you shot in an opportunity zone.

‍

Or if you there's all types of measures in the bill that encourages production beyond the coasts. So you get rewarded if you go to many states. You get rewarded if you go to rural areas. So this really is designed to serve all the entire country and get everyone in the production game.

‍

So this is based on wages instead of total spending. What does that say about who the bill is meant to help?

‍

speaker-1 (09:01.804)

Yeah, thanks for that lead and Cameron. Yeah, this is a jobs bill. That's what this bill does. You know, I we like to, you know, if people say this is a, you know, a handout, it's really not because what we have here is we know the companies I represent and and all the independents, they will be making film and television over the next 10 years and they will be spending enormous amounts of money to do it. What we're saying is we want to do it here. That's the difference. We just want to change the location here and then the economic benefits.

‍

To us are enormous. You know, we did a study with a group called the Oldsburg Report, the Oldsburg company, and they did a report on the economic impact of a federal incentive bill. And they estimated that we'd have an additional $250 billion of added economic investment to the country if we have this. That doesn't even count the additional tax revenues. Our system right now supports runaway production because when Tom Cruise does a movie in Europe.

‍

He pays 100% of his taxes in Europe. So if we bring that Tom Cruise movie back to the United States, Tom Tom Cruise is followed by thousands of jobs. And we want those jobs to be here. And we want everyone getting paid and paying taxes on those jobs here in America. And we want Tom Cruise paying taxes in America. This is a no-brainer in terms of economic advantage. That's why these other countries are doing it. The problem is.

‍

When you go to Congress, they say, well, this costs money because they only look at what you this takes out of our tax revenues. But in reality, this is a a winner for America. It's a moneymaker for America. So that's what we're trying to, you know, convince the lawmakers on Capitol Hill. You're you're only looking at half the equation. You know, they need to look at what this does for our communities. So

‍

Yeah. You mentioned a couple of these bonus credit in rural and disaster areas or or economic opportunity zones. Can you walk us through some of the bonus credits and what each one is meant to encourage? Sure.

‍

speaker-1 (11:01.26)

Yeah. So there's a base cr you know, again, and this bill may change. It's in a it's it's been introduced. We have a lot of co sponsors. We're currently getting the bill what they call scored to see what what the fiscal impact would be. So this could still change, but generally, right now, as the bill's structured, it's a twenty percent credit, a baseline credit. And then you can get additional uplift. You can get additional five percent uplift if you're an independent filmmaker.

‍

if you get additional five percent uplift if you go into a rural area. There's a maximum of thirty percent currently, so you can't keep going, but I will list some of the other uplifts. So there's a additional uplift if you're bringing substantial work back from overseas. There's an uplift if you're going to more, you know, more states. I think if you produce in 10 American states, you get an additional uplift. So you can see what the bill is trying to do. It's trying to force

‍

production throughout the United States into communities that don't always see it. And yeah, I think it's going to have a dramatic impact. And what's interesting about this industry, you know, when when Congress wanted to incentivize the making of high-tech chips, it takes years to build fabs. It takes you know, so long to ramp that up. In our industry, it's a snap of a finger. If we pass this this year, and this is what we've told President Trump, he will see the production.

‍

light up across the country because we don't need to build factories. We already have our infrastructure. We already have our talent and our crew. So this is instant. So that's that's another thing we have going for us.

‍

That's great. You alluded to this a little while ago, but how would a federal credit work alongside state programs in places like Georgia, California, New York, or New Mexico?

‍

speaker-1 (12:46.69)

They are stackable. They are meant to work in conjunction. So it's but a lot of the state programs are are capped. I think they're all capped, but Georgia. So not everyone can qualify in Louisiana where you are, Cameron. So if that if their credit is expired, you could still get the federal incentive and still shoot in Louisiana. But they're designed to work together. You know, some states have their own regulations. You know, Texas has its own rules. So if you wanted to qualify for both Texas

‍

And the federal, you just make sure you qualify for all the the Texas rules, and then there will be fewer rules on top of on the federal. We're trying to make it as easy to use as possible. Essentially, you can't make pornography. And then other than that, we really don't want to restrict how people use this as long as they're employing people and they're spending over a million dollars.

‍

Why are post production and VFX included? And why is the bar set at seventy-five percent of the work done in the US?

‍

Sure. So yeah, that's one part we haven't talked yet about in this bill. So you have the standalone credit, which applies if you do your 75% of principal photography here, you get to use the credit on all of the work you do in the United States. So, but as you know, global incentives become more refined, what we've seen is individualized columns of incentive for special effects and also for traditional post production. So we wanted to mirror some of that.

‍

And each industry is is different, right? The VFX business in America, we need to bring that home. We need to encourage more of that work here. So that's exactly why we have a standalone VFX provision here. So if you shoot abroad, but you still want to do your 75% of your VFX here, we're gonna reward you for that because we want you to bring that back here. Same thing with traditional post. You know, sometimes stories just happen. Let's say a story.

‍

speaker-1 (14:43.01)

takes place in Colombia. They want to shoot it in Columbia, but it's an American crew, an American director. You know, they want to do that post production, let's say in Georgia. So we want to make sure they can do that and we want to incentivize that. So that's sort of the two columns we built alongside the general credit, because we really want to focus on those two specific industries.

‍

Josh, can you make the case to someone outside of this industry? Why should a taxpayer in a state with little production care whether this passes? 

‍

So a few reasons. So every day a TV show or a movie is in your community, you know, if I think a TV show it's over six hundred thousand dollars a day. A move a major motion picture, almost a million dollars a day gets poured into local communities. And that's not that's not just going to actors and directors, that is going to restaurants and hotels and caterers and dry cleaners and accountants. It is such a boon for local communities and

‍

By the way, if you make a movie in your town, I was just on a conversation this morning lobbying an Oregon member, and they talked about, you know, the Goonies House. You know, these are places that people come to 30, 40 years later. I was in Ohio and there was a in Sandusky, Ohio, and there was a a Tommy boy screening. They're still celebrating that movie 30 years later. So, you know, I was in Iceland over the summer and

‍

Someone Hey, that is the most photographed mountain in Iceland, not because it's the most beautiful, because they had it on Game of Thrones. Like we want to bring all that to America. We want all these places to be celebrated in America. So, you know, and the other thing I would say to people in states that are not production hubs is you want your stories told in your state. So if this is an Iowa story, you know, we want the

‍

speaker-1 (16:33.664)

You'll know you know, Cameron. Storytellers want this to be as close to true as possible. So they always want to go to the place where the story happens first. And this will actually let them do that because everyone will have a base credit of at least 20%, and probably more if you're in a rural area. So this is this is going to be a really great thing for both states that have the production and also states that are trying to get into that business.

‍

An anecdote I heard that was quite shocking from a head of production overseeing a pretty large sized indie slate was that they're working on a film that is an inspiring American story and they're filming it in Australia. Not because they want to, but because they have to. That the just economics are too divorced from being able to actually get this thing done where the story takes place. So I think that makes a tremendous amount of sense. To that end though, like that's an indie film, pretty decently sized one. Critics

‍

I'm imagining we'll call this a tax break for big studios. What's your answer to that? How does the bills design address?

‍

that. Yeah. So it's again, like I said, it's it's we're trying this this work is already gonna happen. So what do we have to do to make it happen here? And if we can happen here, it's a win for everybody. So that that's the point. It's it's you know we know this you make money as a country by doing this. By the way, the way the credit is structured, you basically make your movie and then you deduct the twenty or twenty five percent from your taxes, but you can't do that until you've already spent over a million dollars.

‍

In this country. So the amount of economic benefits is gonna wash away what this costs. And again, if the if Congress chooses not to do this, these movies are still gonna get made. The television shows are still gonna get made. They're gonna get made in other places. So that that's a lose for us. So we see this as a big win-win. We just need to convince lawmakers that this is a money-making endeavor for our country. foreign governments have figured this out and they're eating our lunch.

‍

speaker-1 (18:33.228)

So yeah, we need to bring this back home and I think we're we're closer than ever, which is very exciting.

‍

Right. A moment ago you mentioned that study that the MPA commissioned with some other partners, I believe. You know, a tax credit costs money. That's why it's going to be going through a committee in Congress to determine how much. But from your view, why is it a good investment? What do you expect it to bring back in jobs and economic activity?

‍

Sure. So we so the report that came back over ten years, if we pass a federal incentive with a base of twenty percent, we estimate that that will bring back an additional two hundred and fifty billion dollars in economic activity and a hundred and forty-three thousand jobs per year. So that is an enormous benefit. And that does not include additional tax revenues that will come from all of that spending.

‍

So it's only a win. If if we do this, the work happens here, the jobs are created here, and American stories are told in America. If we don't, we're gonna see that thirty nine percent of production go down and down and down. So and what

‍

What does that mean? Like what happens to American production jobs if Congress doesn't act?

‍

speaker-1 (19:42.296)

They will they will continue to disappear. You know, IATSE and DGA and Teamsters just released a study talking about the tens of thousands of jobs that have already left. And we want filmmakers to be in America. We want our, you know, young people growing up to be filmmakers, to be storytellers. This is one of our signature American industries. You know, we started this business and we've allowed other places to come and take it from us.

‍

And so now when you see movies, they often take place in nowhere, you know. They it may look like America, but you have a sense that it may not be America and they don't mention where the story takes place. So we want to start making movies in in Springfield, Illinois, in Chicago, you know. We want to name the places and see the places and and know that our communities felt that presence of that movie when they came to town.

‍

Would you paint this picture? You know, if this passes, what changes for a grip, a production accountant, or a small rental house of a few years from now?

‍

Yeah, they're working. They're getting enough work to cover their health care. You know, they are able to make a living. They're able to settle in a place where there's going to be consistent work. So it means everything. This is existential for the workers in the industry, the below the line workers in the industry. You know, if we want this business to continue, we we need to do what the rest of the world is doing. We can't just stick our head in the sand. So, no, this is a lifeline for those workers. And and you know, we all want.

‍

our movies and T V made here, you know, it's it's a special thing that, you know, if you've ever you know, been in a town where they had a movie shooting, it's it's the best thing and it electrifies the whole community.

‍

speaker-0 (21:23.822)

So let's talk about how it passes. The bills, as you mentioned, are now with House Ways and Means and Senate finance. What has to happen next for this to become law?

‍

So yeah, we're we're sort of on a two-track process here. We're we're you know, we're desperately trying to see if we can get this passed this year. We're trying to take the momentum that the presidential truth gave us and we're driving that message home on the hill. That's why we have so many co-sponsors. So, you know, government funding runs out on December eleventh, and so Congress needs to pay its bills. What we're trying to do is see if we can attach this to that must pass budget bill or

‍

Some sort of tax extender bill at the end of the year when what they call the congressional lame duck session after the election. So we're gonna try to do that. If we don't succeed there, we are gonna reintroduce this in the new year and and continue to work. And, you know, as if if we end up with a democratic, partial democratic control of Congress, you know, I think this is an issue that Democrats and President Trump can work together on. And I don't know how long a list that is, but this is definitely on that list.

‍

And the president's been very open about excited to work with a bipartisan coalition here. So we're gonna try to get it done in twenty twenty six because we wanna start this immediately. but if we don't quite get there, we're gonna we're gonna keep at it. And we have this entire coalition. We have all these co-sponsors we've already recruited. So we're we're coming at this from a real place of strength.

‍

That's great. What would tell you that the bill is gaining not just real momentum, which we know that it has, but real legs to get past? Like what are you watching for in the next few months?

‍

speaker-1 (23:02.266)

in the next few weeks, actually. And look, we are trying to talk to as many congressional offices as possible. We're putting local voices on with reps. We are trying to have those people in our industry that are well known reach out to senators and leaders. You know, we have assets in this industry that no other industry has, and we need to use them. So what's been most encouraging is, you know, in the in the past, as you know, Hollywood is always at each other's throats and people don't tend to agree, but

‍

We have built a coalition of industry, film and television production that we are united. We are united from labors to studios to independents, from producers to below the line workers. So that gives me a lot of hope for the future. But you know, Washington is a strange place. you know, you never know why things happen or don't happen, but we're we're trying everything. We are you know, we're we're we're using every tool in the toolbox to try to get this passed.

‍

I love it. On what people can do, does it really make a difference when someone calls their member of Congress? Like what actually happens when a congressional office gets that?

‍

Yeah, it does make a difference. You should email your members of Congress and Senators, ask them to co-sponsor the bill. Yes, it makes a difference. If you know your member of Congress, if you've ever written a check to a member of Congress, call them and ask them. You know, they they should hear from you. Definitely matters. If you think, you know, it's worth, you know, I was on the hill for 20 years, as you said. We listen to constituents. You can make a difference. There's actually nothing more powerful than the constituent's voice. So please do reach out. it's in our hands if we can do this.

‍

If you're a line producer or a camera operator and, you know, they're you're calling a representative or senator tomorrow, what what should they say? Can you give us a three second version?

‍

speaker-1 (24:48.822)

Yeah, yeah. Please co-sponsor the Motion Picture and Television Entertainment Revitalization Act, MPTERA. It was it was sponsored in the House by Nathaniel Moran and and Linda Sanchez and in the Senate by Tim Scott and Adam Schiff. And we want it to pass this year, so please co-sponsor it and push for its passage. It's as simple as that.

‍

should people prioritize their own members, members on ways and means and Senate finance or members who haven't signed on yet? And if their member already supports the bill, should they still call?

‍

Yeah, you should call and you should and thank them for supporting it. And if you know people in states, basically you want to call your own member of Congress. You know, congressmen don't tend to listen to people outside their district. So call your member of Congress. If you have friends in red states, have them call their districts, their Congress people. So yeah, reach out to your senators and members. That those are the right people.

‍

What in your view makes a call or a letter stand out? Like a specific production that went overseas, a crew member who had to relocate, a local business that depends on productions. How should they frame it?

‍

Yeah, a personal anecdote about their life and work. You know, if it feels like you just copied and pasted a pre written letter, that's not as good. If you're telling a personal story about how the industry's affected you and and what it means to the community, that's that's what you want to say.

‍

speaker-0 (26:09.122)

That's awesome. Beyond calling, how can people get involved through their unions, guilds, and trade groups?

‍

Yeah, go to https://www.usfilmandtv.org/ and there are links there to send letters, to do social media. That's the other thing we can do. you know, if you're on a set somewhere, do a social media post and there's instructions at that website to tell you how to tag it and and circulate it.

‍

Josh, thank you so much for joining me on production and for all these insights. Let's get this thing done.

‍

Thanks, Cameron.