Tech-Driven Payroll for a 24/7 Industry with Steven Fishman

Welcome to On Production. I'm your host, Cameron Woodward, and today I'm joined by Steven Fishman, who is actually my colleague and coworker. He is a seasoned leader in the world of entertainment payroll, whose experience spans decades and includes senior roles at major industry players like Media Services, which later became a part of Cast and Crew, and now here at Wrapbook. Stephen's extensive experience gives him a unique vantage point into how

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Entertainment payroll has evolved and in many ways stayed the same over the years. I would love to discuss with him today, his personal journey, pivotal lessons he's learned along the way, why he's excited to be at Wrapbook and his insights on where the industry is headed next. Stephen, welcome.

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Steven Fishman (00:43.31)

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Happy to be here.

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Cameron (00:46.475)

Yeah, so can you start by telling us how you got your start in entertainment payroll?

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Steven Fishman (00:52.268)

I worked on one production. was Aaron Spelling's Sunset Beach, a daytime soap opera. It was filming mostly at the NBC lot. And I was in the production accounting division as a PA, doing various things that PAs do. And they actually ended up kind of having me focus on the production accounting team.

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and helping them the most. And that show was actually using entertainment partners, which is where I learned about the various employer record payroll companies and how that works. And the key accountant at that show wanted to stop the freelance world and wanted a full-time job. So she was applying at various payroll companies. That's when I learned about media services. And then applied and got lucky they had hired someone else but that person actually didn't like it so it really worked out well for me.

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Cameron (02:00.522)

Ultimately, end to end, how long were you at Media Services?

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Steven Fishman (02:04.526)

26 years plus.

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Cameron (02:07.873)

Wow, that's awesome. What do you think kept you in the entertainment payroll industry for so long?

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Steven Fishman (02:13.006)

It's always changing. There's never a dull moment. Everyone knows production is quite interesting, quite unique, as we like to say. It's the snowflake effect of it. But I was there when it was more traditional studios and networks than independence, but then as it transitioned. And we also were doing every type of format. So I was selling commercials for a while as well.

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commercials, music videos, industrials. And then when reality became big, we were one of the first ones to think that that was a good viable market. So we went heavy into that and all the different conferences and everything that were associated with that. In addition, we also kind of recognized the branded content, new media when that was coming up. so because media services didn't really have

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the traditional networks and studio business like Paramount, Brothers, et cetera. All of these were really big opportunities for us. And so we had a way of getting into the streamers, mostly Amazon, through our production accounting division, which was unique at the time. And through that division, we ended up doing the production accounting for many scripted series for Amazon when they were just starting entertainment. And that was a,

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great time for us because the shows are obviously very large, large budgets, large crews really brought us to another level at that company. Ultimately, that didn't work out and that's a very important thing to realize is that you have to be very as a payroll company and as the software provider, you have to really know what you're getting into.

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And you have to have a plan. You have to have a roadmap and you have to have the software that's going to support the types of businesses that you are going after. And because at Media Services, they had always gone after reality or independent projects. They weren't really set up for the size and scale and union complexity of these Amazon scripted series.

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Steven Fishman (04:39.148)

and it ended up not really going the way we would like. And so, you know, very valuable lesson for them at the time. But that was their opportunity. That was their opportunity to get what at the time was or still is considered a studio. So that was interesting. That was an interesting part of the journey.

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Cameron (04:59.129)

To that end, Steven, how have your experiences at Media Services and then Caspen Crew and now Wrapbook over the course of 20 plus years shaped your perspective on the payroll industry for entertainment?

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Steven Fishman (05:13.646)

That's an excellent question. Wrapbook is so unique because as I always say, it's a technology company that's, you know, uh, breaking into the entertainment industry and the payroll business. Whereas the payroll companies traditionally have always been payroll companies that are just building software for the industry because it has to be proprietary. The payroll systems, production accounting software and all the ancillary things.

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are all not available off the shelf. So everything has to be built themselves, but that's not their first business. So they suffer because of the fact that the software is just okay. And then they suffer again when independent companies develop software, which happens over the years for budgeting or for onboarding or time cards. And then they realize they can't develop something as

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good as that or as quickly as they need to. So they try to leapfrog the competition by acquiring these various products. Then that leads to like that product might be great, but there's no integration between that and the more legacy systems that they have. Whereas Wrapbook is just thoughtfully planned from day one of exactly the roadmap of what we're going to do. And

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Also, we're a tech company, so the level of engineering is different. And I think that combined with the fact that we have that might, like the might of like some of our investors behind us enabled us to also be able to find the entertainment specific industry experts that other payroll companies probably can't get. So if you combine the fact that we're a technology company,

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with a very thoughtful and planned out roadmap of what we're gonna do combined with being able to access and hire the greatest experts in labor relations or production accounting, then that's a great merge between the technology side and the entertainment industry side.

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Cameron (07:32.953)

I'm sort of speaking to that a little bit, Steven, and I'm curious, in your career, are there any key lessons you've learned throughout just, you know, in entertainment payroll?

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Steven Fishman (07:43.919)

There are many lessons. You know, it's a very, very relationship driven business. So, you you want to build these strong relationships with people, which I'm fortunate to have done. And you want to grow with them and have them grow with you. It's like a symbiotic kind of relationship. And so

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You know, it's, I think it made it easier for me to take some of those existing relationships and show them something exciting and new. As we all know at Wrapbook, when people see this, it's like a hallelujah moment because it's something that everyone's been hoping would happen. I don't know that anyone thought it ever would happen because the pace of development of the existing legacy payroll companies is so slow that

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They don't really feel the pressure to change. Maybe the smaller ones do, but then they don't have the might to change. But the two largest companies really have not felt any kind of need to change what they're doing. So everyone that's in production finance or production accounting, et cetera, they all have been hoping for something that's more current, like from this decade. And so that's why it's a breath of fresh air.

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As, as a lot of businesses are, but I think the entertainment industry is truly, truly relationship based. mean, there are very few industries where you can go from being a PA, you know, an entry level position, important, but entry level position, one show, and then three show laters, three shows later, you're producing, producing content. That's why everyone's important as they always should be, but everyone should be treated with respect. And I think that just also helps us.

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to realize because Wrapbook does that too, like we'll take smaller projects and we'll just, you know, help them just as much as we help the larger projects and they'll grow with us, we'll grow with them. It's good.

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Cameron (09:56.281)

Steven, is there a particularly challenging or memorable moment that taught you something valuable professionally?

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Steven Fishman (10:03.624)

one of the, you know, I've been through sag strikes and runaway production to Canada with currency exchange. I've seen the ups and downs over the course of time I've been doing this, but I think truly one of the hardest challenges and it stuck with me was when media services decided that they had to

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really up their game and they had to create a whole new internal production accounting software program. But the ownership was concerned and unhappy with the pace of development. And so at some point they said, this is the deadline. It has to be done by this date. And so it wasn't ready to go live, but they did anyway. And that was just brutal.

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I mean, there were people that were working 20 hours a day. They were providing dinner for everybody. You know, it was, everyone was chipping in and doing the best they could, but that brought some bad will because it was a system that, you know, what we were doing, I really remember this. I was driving to the airport because there were like special ways you can almost treat a package. It's like a passenger to get it the fastest way possible. there was too much of that and

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It was really, really disruptful and harmful. They came through that, you know, good for them. But that just shows you like how important it is to the software side of this business and the technology side of this business is so key. And if you don't have that, it could really damage you as a company and your reputation. It was damaging because it was affecting

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folks’ pension health and welfare. So we were getting calls from people you never want to get where like their insurance is cut off and things like that. So it's extremely important that the leadership understands like technology development and you know, when to say go and you know, when not to say go. So that was a particularly interesting period of time.

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Cameron (12:26.233)

How do you think your early experience has shaped how you approach your role today?

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Steven Fishman (12:31.726)

That's an interesting question. I have, I think, kind of a unique way of selling, which is what my job is basically, selling, and selling Wrapbook. And I do it in kind of a different way than I'm now learning, you know, a more structured, more efficient and effective way. So...

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I think it's interesting at my, how long I've been in this industry to then have a whole another perspective and a better way of doing things, but to having to learn how to do that. Like what I say, like, you know, build a new muscle, create, know, it's, it's, it's been challenging, but also that makes, it a lot of fun because like we were talking about earlier, like what has changed. That's a big, big change for me. And also demoing.

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like really being having a really strong knowledge of the product is extremely helpful because I feel like more like now more than ever in my entire career have I had a better understanding of the processes of production accounting. Like I've always understood and I've been worked in the office but now I've never really worked on the production accounting software but now piecing together like the history of all the time I've spent with

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production accountants or speaking to production accountants, visiting production accountants, but now like actually being in the software on a daily basis has been a true, I like it. I mean, it's a whole new level for me.

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Cameron (14:18.903)

You were mentioning this a bit, you know, that you've seen significant shifts in entertainment payroll, whether that's strikes or geographical changes and where high volumes of production happen. What do you think has changed the most significantly over your tenure?

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Steven Fishman (14:36.526)

Well, I think one of the largest shifts we're having is happening right now. I talk to people a lot about this. think it's, and I'm hoping it's temporary, but this is a unique period of time where there's a lot of movement towards YouTube and that type of content.

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In addition to the industry just naturally looking for more efficient and less expensive ways to do production. So I think we're in a unique place to be able to accommodate all the different changes that are happening. Whereas some of the more rigid payroll companies that have been doing it for a very long time don't have the ability to adapt as quickly. I think right now is kind of a

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a unique point in the industry where, it changes all the time, but incentives are going to be a big help because the states are now putting more money into the pool to try to attract productions to come to their state or not to shoot overseas. And I think that's going to work because it's just much easier.

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for the people that are based here to do everything here. And I think that we'll have a tremendous impact as we go forward.

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Cameron (16:08.183)

Are there, Steven, things that you thought would change that haven't? Or aspects of the industry you feel are overdue for disruption?

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Steven Fishman (16:15.726)

I was at Media Services when we had a DOS based production accounting software. And at the time when we came out with the first, when Media Services came out with the first Windows software program, I never thought that people would just resist as strong as they did, as hard as they did. It was incredible. I mean, people get very used to what they're working on.

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and they don't often, oftentimes it's hard for people to, they know what that they should change and they know that there's better things out there, but they're always so busy, right? And they're so busy and they have a great, they have a speedy way of doing things or they consider it speedy what they're currently using. That that's tough. It's always been tough to shift some folks from one, you know, standard of software to another.

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but now that it's been so long in the industry without significant changes between all of the entertainment payroll companies, I think there's a collective sigh of relief that there is now a player that understands the demands and the unique needs of the production, finance and production accounting community. And I think that's why I see all these production finance folks saying, like cheering us on basically. Like.

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they're behind us 100 % because it's what they want also. They want to see that to make their job easier on the production finance side for studios, networks, and even independents.

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Cameron (17:55.821)

I mean, you've spoken to this a little bit, Stephen, but I'm curious because you are talking with our clients and prospects and people every day across the industry, people you've known for years in some cases. How have changes in technology, whether it's payroll technology or otherwise altered the expectations of filmmakers and professionals that use entertainment payroll services?

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Steven Fishman (18:22.488)

I think over the years it's gotten to the point where, because we're 24/7, all of us with everything we do on our phones. think that expectation alone has been tough, which is there's, things have to be available or at least online available all the time. Like there really isn't downtime. And I think, you know, as a salesperson that's become harder and harder because

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It used to be like, wow, you're working at eight o'clock. Now the expectation for all of us, I feel, is there has to be some type of response and some kind of solution for clients when they need it and whenever they need it. And that's something that's kind of slowly, gradually increased over time, I guess, because of the biquity of

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just technology and the fact that we can Google and use AI all the time. They just assume that's something that should be available for their service business as well. And that's why we address that as well. it's been an interesting movement towards like, you know, 24/7 type business almost.

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Cameron (19:46.211)

That's a really interesting and wise answer. It’s amazing how plugged in everyone is, how much more content there is just across the board. Like you mentioned like some of the challenges around like creator content, but then like there's also this incredible amount of professionally produced content as well. There's just more across the board. Everyone's always turned on. What specifically drew you to Wrapbook?

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Steven Fishman (20:14.926)

That's a good question. So I was working, I was working in film and TV when I was at Media Services, but I still had a lot of commercial business. And my commercial clients that I had for many, many years at Media Services, we were just wondering where they were all going in the beginning, because they were all leaving. And I'm not exaggerating. mean, we were keeping spreadsheets of every client that had left.

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And that's when I found out that that company they were going to was Wrapbook. And shortly after that, some of my colleagues at, when I was at media services left to go to Wrapbook. And it's, there was a number of reasons. So one, the commercial business was being dominated by Wrapbook. To the production, the film and TV side.

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When I would ask my production, my clients, production companies, everybody, if they had heard of Wrapbook, and if they were honest with me, almost all of them had seen a demo or had heard of it. And I, know, putting two and two together, like meeting with the commercial folks that I was friends with that had left and them showing me the app or showing me how it works. And then realizing that they're, you know, there's a progression here. There's a development and that there's a roadmap.

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that they're going to go after, you know, first commercials, then independence, then studios, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought, boy, like I already saw what it was happening with commercials and the technology is unmatched by anyone. So I realized that if that was happening with that and the same, you know, thought was going into the film and TV business, it's like join or get left behind and.

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And I truly believe that I'm very lucky, really lucky.

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Cameron (22:16.729)

How do you see Wrapbooks approach to payroll differing from traditional players?

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Steven Fishman (22:22.542)

Well, mean, there's the fact that we're using technology, we're leveraging technology to make everyone's job easier, right? It's a really difficult job that they have and it shouldn't be made more difficult by antiquated systems. You know, if you're not in the entertainment industry and you can use any type of accounting software you want,

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You have a lot of choices and there's a lot of competition and it's really state of the art. We're state of the art and we're state of the art for the industry. So that's, I don't see how that was ever going to happen with any of the other companies. We all joke that, you know, you can ask for a report from one of the legacy companies one year and, you know, just hope you're going to get it within the next five years. We develop things on a weekly basis. I mean, it's incredible. I,

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And they're all, it's not development for the sake of development. It's thoughtful development that's led by what the industry needs. We're not telling the industry what it needs. We're taking what the industry needs, what the requirements are, and we're coming up with thoughtful ways to, you know, meet those needs and incorporating all the current, current technology like AI or optical character recognition or whatever it is.

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we're incorporating that in a very seamless way, not a tacked on way, not a like, let's buy this company way, just in the platform. And we're just building something that people are truly, truly astonished by, including the app. Like we're not leaving behind the crew. Like the crew has a new favorite tool and I don't blame them because why would you want to use like

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something from media services, EP, cast and crew on all your projects when each one of those is not really that great. When you can have something with all of your history and your tax forms and just the ease of use of the app is so great. In fact, like media services at the time didn't want to develop apps because apps are difficult. Apps are tough. Like if you develop a website that's enabled where you can use on your phone.

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Steven Fishman (24:46.892)

It's just easier. You just change one thing. The apps are harder, but we all use apps. That's what people want to use. And so that's already next level. it's really nothing like this. It's unparalleled.

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Cameron (25:02.745)

Steven, what excites you most about the future of Wrapbook?

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Steven Fishman (25:07.694)

I mean, I see changes every week. I see the progress that we've made on the film. I've been here a year, but a little bit over a year. we've, think two years ago, there wasn't almost any other production accounting software for film and TV written. And now we have all these different reality TV companies that are using us, including independent film projects, where you could...

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Like literally in a week to week basis, you could see the progression we're making and that we're able to provide what the industry needs at different levels, right? So we just keep increasing the amount of, you know, the users, there's more and more folks that can use this tool on a week to week basis. just keeps increasing. So, you know, we started with commercials, of course.

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They don't need production accounting software. Now we have production accounting software and we're adding all these extra features to it. So commercials to independent projects to unscripted to networks. It's, you know, entertainment domination.

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Cameron (26:22.103)

What's something, know, shifting gears a little bit, Stephen, what's something that most people misunderstand or underestimate about entertainment payroll?

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Steven Fishman (26:31.17)

I think the complexity of, that's a good question because if you ask people that not in the industry, they just immediately say, you work at a company like an ADP, because everyone knows ADP. And I think people underestimate the complexity of what we do. The media services used to publish a physical book that was the labor guide and for

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just for union rules and rates. And it was approximately 800 pages long. And that has to all, that's going to be something that, you know, no one has been able to truly automate that entire process. And we will be able to, but I think in general, like people don't understand how complex this really is. And that, you know, if you were to ask someone that was never, that had never done a production before,

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and they were going to start doing payroll, they would just assume they could use like an ADP. And they'd quickly learn that, you know, their ADP doesn't have cost reporting, doesn't have pension health and welfare, doesn't have workers comp built in. It's, it's a very, very unique business, but it's also very complex. And that's part of the reason why, the payroll companies traditionally have had such a hard time, you know, creating software for this industry.

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Cameron (27:58.211)

What do you see are the biggest opportunities in our industry right now, in the entertainment industry specifically?

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Steven Fishman (28:06.328)

for payroll or?

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Cameron (28:08.173)

Yeah, maybe either both.

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Steven Fishman (28:10.318)

Well, for us, there's a lot of opportunity because we're, you know, we want to show all the production companies and studios networks what we've developed and what we're developing. And so us, for us, there's a tremendous amount of opportunity to get the word out there. I think the word is pretty much out there, but we do an excellent job of marketing. But

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I think there's a lot more opportunity for people to try us and then realize what the difference is between us and a traditional EOR payroll company. I think opportunity-wise, are things that still need to be combined into one platform that no one's ever been able to do. Let's say, for example, I'll just make this up, but

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let's say tying residuals more closely to the entire platform. And I think if there's anyone in the industry that can do it, it's, it's Wrap book. I don't see why if we put our mind to it, like, and that's what we choose to go and that's the direction we went, then that would be a tremendous opportunity because it would be a true all in one system for everybody. Everyone would have their, you know, entry into the system at some point, but it would all still be one system, which is great. There's, there's a lot of antiquated, you know, processes in this business still. It's shocking. I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, the company was founded is because of the surprise of how things were still using paper eight years ago. That's just, you know, crazy. So, but there's still a lot of things like that that are in the industry. And, you know, it's slowly changing. But I think there's a lot of room for improvement.

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Cameron (30:07.469)

What advice would you give to professionals who are new to the entertainment industry?

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Steven Fishman (30:58.28)

I would say, to be honest, I would say the best thing to do is to learn all of the, if I'm being fair, like to learn all the employer of record payroll companies, platforms. And when you do that, you will not only be more marketable, but you also see the differences, right? And you'll be able to see and choose which one will be the most effective, the most efficient, the most accurate.

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the easiest to use for you and your crew. So in the past, when I did work at media services and I was always trying to help people that were looking for work or just breaking into the industry, that was my advice. My advice was always to learn all the platforms, call entertainment partners, call casting crew, try to find a way to learn their platforms. But now it's a little bit different, which is I'll say the same thing.

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I think that you should be marketable in that way in case there's an opportunity that arises that is not using Wrapbook. But I also think that if you learn all the systems, it's going to be a stark, stark difference between like what you're using for a cast and crew and an EP and a Wrapbook. And I think you'll be able to make your own judgment about what you'd rather use in your career. And I think that most people that are starting out will want something that's

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going to be the leading software provider and payroll provider for the industry. Why wouldn't you tie your wagon to that? But to be fair, learn all the programs. And then also, Wrapbook does some thoughtful things, like additionally thoughtful things, like Room Tone. So once you have a resume together of, like, you've worked on a few shows, you can apply to that and

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It's just a great forum for production accountants.

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Cameron (32:57.059)

Steven, when you look back, what's the most rewarding part of your career so far?

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Steven Fishman (33:01.676)

Honestly, I love to get people work. mean, that's truly, we've all had times when we were in between or wanted something better. And I love, like connecting people to people and building teams of folks that end up going around to doing shows. I remember one of the recent New York Wrapbook events that was just a networking event. So nice to see like four people that had become really long-term friends because they had worked as a team. They chose to work as a team. Like one was payroll, one was a key, et cetera. And they worked on a lot of network projects together. But then as the industry shifts, they all, you know, ended up doing projects on their own. But it's kind of cool because you build like this camaraderie and this friendship with folks. I think I like that a lot. I like that. A lot of people it's for the size of the entertainment industry on this side of it. It's really a tight knit community. So everyone knows someone that knows someone if you

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you know, if you don't know that person. And I like that. I talk to everyone. So it's just, it fits my personality well, you know.

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Cameron (34:37.107)

what keeps you inspired or motivated professionally.

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Steven Fishman (34:40.206)

Oh man, Wrapbook is, you know, I, I joked with people all the time that like I do a demo one week and I do a demo the next week. like, Oh, I wasn't up to speed on that, that new feature. Uh, okay. So it's amazing to see the stuff that Wrapbook is building. Um, and to see what we're going to do with it and where we're going to go. Um, not just where we are now, but.

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Like what will we build for studios and networks? What are we building for them? And then also, you know, after that, some of the other areas that we might move into, whether it's residuals or budgeting, et cetera, even scheduling, who knows? So I think it's exciting to be, I've always been interested in, I'm not a technology person, but I've always.

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been interested in the Apples, Googles, et cetera, the world. And I feel like I'm doubly lucky because I'm doing something that I already like to do, but it's a combination of the entertainment industry and technology. And so I get to see how things are developed and I can actually watch the progress happen. And I think the folks that are working with us now, doing payroll with us now in production accounting will be

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You know, I actually see that because we do, like check-ins on our, our existing clients and the check-ins are, or lot of it is just to show them new features. Like that alone is never done because there's no reason to do that because there is no new features. So, and it's almost, almost like other payroll companies don't really want to do that. They don't want to check in because what they're going to get is feedback that they can't do anything with. Whereas.

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We take that feedback and if we haven't already heard it or if it's being mentioned by lots of different people, we incorporate that in future plans. We make a way to make sure people are heard. And that's exciting. I just did that this week. One of my clients, were the client success managers were checking in on them and there were some wow moments there.

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Steven Fishman (37:07.106)

Like that never happened in the past. That didn't happen. A wow moment was getting paid. That was, you know, correctly. That would be the wow moment in the past. So that was really cool to see. You know, and it's funny because when you, when you, you know, give people something, they're always like, that's amazing. Can you do? And then it just leads to, can you do this, this and this? But I think what happens is they see this.

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and they see how the platform is built and how easy it is to use. And then there's an assumption, which is true, that we could do anything. And so they're kind of like asking for dream states now, you know, of what... It's amazing how quickly people go from like, all right, I'm going to ask for things, I'm just going to get shut down, or I'm just going to ask for things and they're going to say yes, and it's not going to ever be built, to I'm going to see new features being built and I'm going to ask for even more new features.

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Yeah, I was like, it's kind of fun to watch.

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Cameron (38:08.279)

That's awesome. Steven, one last question, is what do you hope your legacy or impact will be in the entertainment payroll industry?

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Steven Fishman (38:16.29)

You know, the greatest thing again is like the people you meet and the ability to connect people with production companies. And I had one situation once where, and I don't often get jobs for like line producers or UPMs or things like that. It's mostly production, accounting and production finance people.

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But I had someone that was really miserable in the production company they were working for, very unhappy. And I know how that affects your life and your family. And I just got super lucky and a connection I had was able to meet with them, was impressed and got them a job. it's like, you know, so I check in with that person once in a while and it's incredible like how much of a

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life-changing moment that is, right? Because we spend so much time doing what we do. That's something I think that hopefully people remember that we're trying to help people in their careers, which just helps everyone. So that would be a nice thing to be remembered by.

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Cameron (39:33.241)

That's awesome. Stephen, it's an honor to work with you. Thanks for sharing a bit of your story and see ya at the next one.

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Steven Fishman (39:41.336)

Thanks, Cam.