The Discipline of Less Is More in Documentary Productions featuring Matt Porwoll

Cameron Woodward (00:00.11)

Welcome back to On Production. Today, I wanted to talk about documentary cinematography, not just as a craft, but as actually operational discipline, specifically in Verite documentary. know, classically on paper cinematographer is responsible for the image, they are, but in practice, especially documentary, that image gets shaped by everything else. Access, trust, time, how many people you can bring, what sound needs, travel logistics, and the budget decisions that determine what's even possible on a given day. Our guest today is Matt Porolll, an Emmy and Sundance award-winning cinematographer known for immersive, really lived-in work, Cartellland, The Trade, Barbara Walters, Tell Me Everything, The Dynasty, and most recently, he shot All the Empty Rooms, which is an Oscar-nominated

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documentary short that follows a seven-year effort to document and preserve, to document the preserved bedrooms of children lost to school shootings. I'm going to try that again. Most recently, he shot All the Empty Rooms, the Oscar-nominated documentary short that follows a seven-year effort to document the preserved bedrooms of children lost to school shootings. Across very different projects, Matt's work has a through line.

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really incredible precision under constraint. And whether you're filming in volatile environments or inside deeply personal private spaces, the camera choices have to serve both the story and the reality on the ground. Matt, great to have you here. Thanks so much.

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Matt Porwoll (01:40.743)

Thank you so much for having me on.

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Cameron Woodward (01:43.052)

So you've built a career around very immersive documentary filmmaking. Like I mentioned a few, know, Cartellland, The Trade, All the Empty Rooms. When you walk into an environment that you cannot control, what sort of your mental operating system or even just like production operating system for just staying ready?

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Matt Porwoll (02:03.837)

Well, it's funny because I'm traditionally a verite cinematographer, having those constraints and having those limitations is actually my happiest and most comfort zone. It's honestly not until I get into projects where I have a full clean slate to work with, if we're doing interviews with a budget and locations, if we have recreations, that's the stuff that actually scares me.

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because I like to work in small teams, I like to work with limited equipment, and I like to just be in a space where all I need to do is focus on the story, and then all the other stuff goes away, and it in some ways makes that part of the job easier.

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Cameron Woodward (02:51.362)

Matt, when you're getting into some of spaces, what's the first constraint you're usually solving for? Is it access, time, sound, or how many people you're bringing?

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Matt Porwoll (03:02.075)

I think a lot of those constraints, we try to get figured out in pre-production before going into the first filming day. But all of those things have ultimately an impact on how that day is gonna go. And so, for instance, with all the empty rooms, we knew that we were going into incredibly sensitive, delicate situations. So whether we had the ability to do it or not, we wanted to remove certain things off the table. We wanted a small footprint.

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We didn't want a big crew. We didn't want a lot of equipment that was going to slow us down. We knew we needed the standards. We knew we needed sound. I'm well-versed and very comfortable in doing my own sound on projects, but this is one of those that it absolutely makes sense to have. So we kind of work the scenario out to be what's going to give us the maximum flexibility to be able to get what we need while not

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you know, over being too overbearing on our subjects. And so once we have that figured out, then it really is just going in and just starting to work with our subjects, talk with them, get everybody comfortable, get everybody on the same page. And then we just kind of go to work and try to disappear as much as possible and not influence what's happening. So the more that you can figure out those logistical challenges, but also advantages beforehand, then the smoother everything's going to go.

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Cameron Woodward (04:30.466)

With sound, it's interesting on this one, sound is such an emotionally compelling element. And it always is in film, but like, you you mentioned that you did it yourself. How did you think about sound in this production related to your image compared to maybe others?

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Matt Porwoll (04:46.099)

Well, this is a challenging one because we're making a film about empty spaces. We're filming portraits of people who aren't there. And so sound is incredibly important. We also did have, when we had people speaking on camera, it wasn't just one or two. We would have the parents, we would have Steve Hartman and Lou Bope, our two protagonists in the film. So we knew that we needed to make sure that those conversations were captured cleanly.

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But this is also because there's such a lack of real kind of conversation once we get into the actual bedrooms, then that's where sound takes on a whole nother level with the final film from the sound design to the score. And that's such a vital, important element of this film that of course happened after production. But it's one of those things to keep in mind that as you're filming this project.

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Cameron Woodward (05:43.651)

That's fantastic. mean, so this is, as I mentioned, like not your first rodeo, not your first like foray into verite. Is there something that like you feel like you've taken with you as you've progressed in your career in terms of like early choices that you feel like save you and save your team and how you produced in the downstream?

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Matt Porwoll (06:04.733)

Honestly, I think it's actually paring my equipment down. I think it's one of those things that, especially for most kind of early and first time cinematographers, is we want to rely on the equipment as a crutch to be able to give us the importance of the story that we're trying to cover. And I found that that ends up just being counterintuitive to what you need to actually tell a good story and photograph it well. And so I think...

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through the experience of doing this time and time again, less is more. And so I really try to pare that down as much as possible because so much spontaneity and so much energy can come out of not having to worry about all of those choices that you have at your disposal and just focus on one thing. And that's the story.

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Cameron Woodward (06:53.858)

Absolutely. Matt, one thing I was also curious about, specifically for this project with all the empty rooms, it unfolds over seven years. So in terms of just thinking through the images and how you want to produce them, how did you or like, what did you lock in early visually or logistically to keep it coherent?

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Matt Porwoll (07:16.881)

Well, while this was a film that took seven years in total to complete, the vast majority of that time was before we ever came on board. Steve Hartman and Lou Boap had been photographing these rooms for seven years. They had photographed four rooms before we came on board. And then our portion of the story and the film is covering the last four that they're doing. And so what was helpful for us is that we already had a roadmap of how those

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Matt Porwoll (07:45.583)

experiences going into the homes would go. Obviously, it was just the two of them doing it for the first four. And then for the last four, would be us with cameras with sound with the with the team, albeit small. But at least we already had a sense of how those experiences were going to go. And our biggest motivation in this was to try as much as possible to not make it any different than the first four rooms. It's all about having a sensitive team.

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that is not just good at their job, but is good at connecting with people and disappearing when necessary. And it was, again, going back to that small footprint of just how do we treat this as if it's just two people going into the space. And so, you know, very much early on in conversations is when it came time for Lou to go in and actually photograph the rooms. The only two people that would be in there during that time would be him and me. Sound was not in.

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Josh, our director, was not in. They obviously had the ability to monitor remotely. But this was all about keeping this small, delicate, and sensitive when we went into the space. And then everything around that with conversations with the families, with doing interviews, with going through, having them show us photographs and videos, that the more people that could actually be there to experience it, the better the overall experience for the family was. Because we were very...

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sensitive and aware of the fact that most of the families involved in this film had never been on camera. They had never done any press. They had purposefully tried to keep that side of the tragedy out of their house. But they obviously trusted Steve in the beginning and they trusted us, but we needed to continue to earn that trust. And so I think going in and making the experience all about learning about their children.

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what made their children great, what were their favorite memories. I think that's something that they had never really been asked that much in detail before. know, everything up until this point was so focused on the tragedy and the loss. And that's unbearable for people to think about and do not only once, but time and time again over years. But for us to be able to come in and just want to talk about the kids.

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Matt Porwoll (10:06.363)

That kind of opened up a whole new experience for them and for us. And so, you know, the more of our crew that we had, even if it was small, to be able to hear those stories and see those photographs really brought light and smiles to everybody's faces. And then when it came time to go into the bedroom and say, OK, let's let's tone that down a little bit and let's just have Lou and myself go in. you know, so much of this is just figuring out the right

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Matt Porwoll (10:35.143)

temperament and approach to cover a story like this, regardless of crew and equipment and scheduling and budget and any of that stuff. It all just comes down to protecting, you know, that trust of the families.

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Cameron Woodward (10:49.976)

Matt, how long did you film your section?

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Matt Porwoll (10:53.745)

We were filming for a year and a half or two years.

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Cameron Woodward (10:58.19)

It's interesting. It's a really interesting thing because it's like so much of Verite documentary is about time progressing as a character. Whereas time in this instance is sort of like halted and that's the hauntingness of it, the ugliness of it. It's really interesting though, like when you walk back into a story like this over the course of, know.

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a year or two, I mean, you were describing like thinking of these memories as truly what they are is like an incredible blessing. How do you approach, and not just in this film, because this is like a very sensitive subject, so personal, but so too are so many of your projects, like how do you walk back into a story, whether it's this one or others that you've worked on without really disrupting the trust you've built? Like, do you keep the relationship ongoing even when you're popping in and out, like say in some of these other projects that you've worked on?

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Matt Porwoll (11:51.836)

It all depends and it all kind of depends on, at least for me, what my position in the film is. know, traditionally as cinematographer, I obviously want to have a relationship with my subjects because I'm the ones in the room filming whatever is happening. But so much of that trust building and relationship building is happening separate from me through the director, through producers, to be able to not only earn and gain, but then to keep.

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that trust. So it all depends on the project. But, you know, I think for the most part, the main concern that I have is my job is to walk into any space of a film and to figure out how to translate that experience to an audience who has not been there before. And more often than not, the environment that I'm walking into, I've personally also never experienced it before until then. So it's all about

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And this is again why I think kind of limited equipment and not having the gear saturate your mind as you're going into these spaces is I'm just trying to figure out how can I effectively communicate the feelings that I have being in this space for the first time to someone else. And then obviously also thinking about how those experiences that I'm having are connected to what the story is. And, you know, it's not all about

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sharing my experience with the world, but I am able to put the audience in those shoes. And so the most, as much as I can focus on those feelings and translating those feelings, then I think the better off the film's gonna be.

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Cameron Woodward (13:33.902)

That's awesome. It's really an interesting approach. you you mentioned like this very small footprint. What does that actually mean in a moment like that, specifically in all the empty rooms? Like what was the package? I mean, that's the most classic question to ask a cinematographer, so I apologize for how confident it is, but I'm very curious because like this is such sensitive holy land in a way, and so I'm curious how you guys really approach that.

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Matt Porwoll (13:58.259)

Well, I'll tell you kind of how we were our initial conversations were going of how we wanted to visually tell the story and then where we ended up is, you know, initially, because we're making a film effectively about the photographs of these spaces is we felt we should have, you know, in early conversations, let's have a film that is very static, that is very grounded. So it's, you know, filming from a tripod. It's filming from Gimbals.

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It's having very smooth, very quiet movement in the film. But then the more we started thinking about it is we obviously wanted the photographs to have a prominent space in the film and photographs by nature are static images. And so we wanted to, we decided that it would be best for the film to in fact kind of counter that with having handheld, lively, in the moment cinematography that would then allow the photographs to stick even harder.

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in the edit. And that not only served the purpose of the film, but it also helped with now we don't need to have, you know, carrying tripods everywhere we're going. We don't need to have a second camera built on a gimbal. We don't need to deal with all of the challenges that happen when the gimbal doesn't want to work for you in the moment, which is the only time it seems to not want to work for you. But then there was also the element of

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Initially for Steve to connect with the families, he had sent letters to all the families who had been affected by gun violence over like at least the last 10 years. And in that letter, he said that when it was just a photography project, that it's just going to be myself, Steve and Lou going into the rooms to photograph. Lou will not touch anything. He will not set up lights. He will not set up stands.

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He will not move anything, touch anything. Everything will remain undisturbed. So when I read that and that was part of what earned the trust of the families in the first place, I knew that we had to adhere by the same rules. So that meant I'm not bringing a tripod into the room. I'm not setting up lights in the room, which I wouldn't traditionally do anyway, but it was nice to be able to remove those elements and that helped pair everything down. So now we don't need to have a tripod.

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Matt Porwoll (16:17.775)

in the space except for if we're doing an interview. I don't need to have a second camera. So it really ultimately became my one camera. There was a Canon C500 Mark II with zoom lenses. And I was on the Angenieux EZ zooms because their range gave me the ability to get whatever I needed in just two lenses. And so that meant I didn't need to have a camera assistant trailing with me everywhere if we were going to film on primes, changing lenses constantly.

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Matt Porwoll (16:46.417)

So again, just by paring that down and saying, have my camera and my lens and I've got some batteries on the belt, I don't actually need anyone around me for hours to be able to get what we need to get. So obviously we did have a camera assistant on our shoot days, but they were able to stay kind of away and just manage media on the side, manage batteries on the side, but within the actual space, we could be really tight. So it would be the director, myself and sound.

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And then we would have our producer, Connell. Connell was with us. But again, most people were kind of staying on the periphery and just watching from afar to be able to keep the number of people in the space as small as possible.

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Cameron Woodward (17:32.024)

So really sort of a tactical craft question rather than the subject matter of this film. I'm curious, when you're filming a quiet room and what's missing, what's not happening, how did you build coverage that creates momentum without forcing anything?

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Matt Porwoll (17:49.405)

Well, I knew going into the rooms that our entry point into them was gonna be Lou, who was going in to take photographs. And so we were able to build a sequence of what is Lou's process before going in? It's prepping his equipment, it's getting himself mentally and emotionally ready to go in. If you notice in the film that every time Lou, before Lou would walk into a space, he would take off his shoes. So it was all about building up

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What is Lou's process for this? So we see Lou go into the space and just staying back and observing how is he taking in everything? What details are he noticing? How is he looking for additional details that may not come forward immediately? And then through that process, then I would kind of take on a similar feeling of doing the exploration and looking for things that I found interesting. And we would kind of

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visually through IQs, pass those notes back and forth to each other in the space. for most scenes, and this one specifically, is that you start wide and then you gradually just work your way in. And you start to find and refine those details that you're looking for.

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Cameron Woodward (19:05.922)

How much time are you in these spaces?

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Matt Porwoll (19:08.768)

We were probably in the room for, I'd say anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour, depending on the space.

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Cameron Woodward (19:13.954)

Hmm. Super interesting. I want to pivot just a little bit to like the, the craft of Verite and some of your past projects as well. You know, like what I think is interesting is, you know, production budgets can buy you time, travel days. would imagine some level of safety and that's probably more important than fancy gear, as you were mentioning. Where do you want producers putting money to protect the cinematography and where can they simplify without losing quality?

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Matt Porwoll (19:43.699)

I mean, I think the biggest one is time, especially when it comes to verite films. Because again, verite films are not traditionally made with expensive or large camera packages. So we're able to save a lot of that money and apply it elsewhere. So I think it really is just about protecting the things that are most important. And in verite films, it is nothing but time. I think we're moving into an age now where not only funding projects is becoming harder and harder,

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but also it's becoming harder to justify spending a lot of time in the field that doesn't necessarily reap the benefits of having X number of usable minutes in the final cut per shoot day. There's so many projects that are, we've spent the first two weeks to three months of the film out all the time filming, knowing full well that the vast majority of that footage will never see the light of day.

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But what it's doing is it's building that trust and building that relationship with our subjects. So when things do get incredibly difficult in the story, we are now a known entity that we can disappear and we can get those incredibly sensitive and dramatic moments. Because if we just jumped in and said, we want to get that moment on day one or day two, it's never going to happen. So you really do have to just invest that time and energy into the beginning of

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figuring out how we're going to tell the story with the people that we have on camera and That really just comes down to time

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Cameron Woodward (21:18.956)

That's interesting. wanted to ask, you know, in your view, like what line item saves the most headache and post.

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Matt Porwoll (21:26.981)

Ooh, that's a good question. And that would be a good question for an editor. mean, other than hard drives, it would be time. You know, there's that's the the other fun part about Verite filmmaking that thankfully I don't have to deal with is dealing with and scrubbing through the amount of footage. You know, I think about a film like Cartelland, we shot well over thousand hours for a 90 minute film. But again, it's that's all about having to be in the space and let things

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Matt Porwoll (21:56.293)

evolve and develop as it's happening because we're not there to direct the story. We're there to just capture it as it's going.

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Cameron Woodward (22:03.574)

Have you seen, maybe not in your work, but in others, or hell, maybe even in your work, where there's like a false economy you see too often?

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Matt Porwoll (22:11.527)

Hmm. don't know. mean, I think, you know, it's documentary filmmaking and verite filmmaking is one of those things that you kind of scrap it together as it goes. You know, it's I mean, I'm trying to even think I guess I guess there's been maybe a couple films that we've had full full budgets approved before getting into the production. But it's it is real.

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small and scrappy where it's like, let's go and film and we'll bring a couple people and then let's raise some more money and then we can bring one or two more people. And then that downshifts again, depending on the next story. you know, it's to me, it's always interesting at the end of a project to see. At the end credits, the amount of people involved in the film by the end, but from my experience, it's traditionally anywhere from three to five in the field in production.

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making a story. So it's kind one of those things that it's a roller coaster ride of what the scale of that project can look like.

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Cameron Woodward (23:15.394)

That's interesting. I'm curious, Matt, like how does your workflow shift when you move from a feature or short to something episodic like the dynasty, you know, especially around scheduling, crew and visual consistency.

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Matt Porwoll (23:30.747)

Yeah, I mean, in some ways, you know, I guess it kind of depends on the kind of episodic show that we're doing. If I look at something like The Trade that was a full verite episodic show, we approached the process of doing that the exact same as we would a feature film, because we ultimately probably ended up with the same amount of shot footage out of The Trade as we did out of Cartellland. But.

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I think it's one of those things that you, know, that's, it's kind of more from the editor side to figure out how are we going to break down in, you know, the act structure and in episodic breaks of how the storytelling is going to go. But from a production and cinematography standpoint, we shot it the exact same way that we would a feature. And what's interesting is I haven't done a lot of short docs. This is really the second one that I've done. And this one still we approached

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ultimately the same way as a feature. And it probably took the same amount of time as a lot of features that we do. But the difference with this is that we knew going into the story that we needed to have a certain amount of guardrails of how far the story could expand out of because it's a short. You don't have the luxury of time in the edit to be able to explore all these different avenues. And that's also the beauty of a short film is that it gets to stay within a very structured, tight purpose.

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And it was nice to operate within those guardrails of how we're going to tell the story. But when it comes to other episodic shows, like you mentioned, the dynasty, you know, it's that's one of those that it's a whole different ballgame of production and scheduling because it's not a, you know, it's not a verite film. We're not following action as it goes. It just becomes a scheduling nightmare of trying to get the kinds of people that you want on camera of when they when can they sit down?

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as production, how do we maximize our time and try to get two or three people back to back? Those become the real challenges. you know, that's the beauty of any kind of this filmmaking is that it's never gonna be easy. And it's all just about figuring out what your priorities are and how to maximize that.

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Cameron Woodward (25:47.523)

My next question is sort of related to this, and maybe this would be more in the domain of the producers you work with, but like on something like Barbara Walters, Tell Me Everything, I'm curious like what production constraints get more intense? Like is it deliverables, approvals from like a streamer? Is it the interview logistics? You know, the archive is a huge piece of that film. Is it something else?

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Matt Porwoll (26:08.911)

It's a lot of what you just mentioned, especially on that film. mean, certainly scheduling was always challenging with getting people in the chair because we're interviewing a lot of high profile people. You know, we did have, at least on that film, we did have the luxury of basically having full access to the ABC archives, which was incredible because that film is made in the archive. But then it's also just

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you know, talk about which avenues do you include and not include, those kinds of films, it could go on and on and on. And it would be, you know, infinitely fascinating if you've covered all of those. But it's really trying to nail down once you have your interviews, once you're seeing where the threads can go, what archive you have, what you want to focus on. So, you know, a lot of that's happening well outside my purview.

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But absolutely, it's never just one thing that is the challenge. It's always a different challenge of the different day. So it's do we have access to archive? Do we have the interview and the sound bites that we need coming from the right person? Do we need to find someone else that would be better to say the same thing that we technically already have? It's about post-production schedule. And then depending on what your distribution is, a lot of these projects, we

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made before we had distribution. So we had a little bit more freedom in how we wanted to tell the story. And then we just present the final film and say, who's interested? Or is it a film that is a commission from the get-go, so now we have a certain amount of requirements that we need to meet, both from a technical standpoint and from a storytelling standpoint. So every project is different, but we are never lacking in challenges and logistical concerns.

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Cameron Woodward (28:00.079)

To that point, Cartellland is in my view like a benchmark for Verite under like very real pressure. At least that's my perception as a consumer of that documentary. Like what did that film teach you about safety and field decision making that still sort of maybe shapes how you work even on completely different subjects?

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Matt Porwoll (28:22.609)

Well, it's interesting. I guess I am very much not a I'm not an adrenaline junkie war photographer, cinematographer. And Cartell Land is one of those films that when we went into it, I think it was a very different story from the beginning, from what it was from the end. And so a lot of the the danger elements were vastly different from our first day to our last day. But.

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you know, obviously safety is incredibly important. And then it's also just weighing the the risks that you're willing to take for the story. And I felt that in that film, you know, it was an incredible story to tell. And so there were, you know, obviously plenty of risks in the in the project. But then it's just developing a system of how do we keep ourselves as safe as possible? How do we alert as many people as possible around us of our

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positioning of where we're going, what we're expecting, things like that. But, you know, there's only so much that you can do to keep yourself safe in a lot of these environments. But I would also say that the environment of filmmaking has changed quite a bit in the last 10 years from when Cartel Land was out to now. And something that I'm incredibly proud of with all the empty rooms is something that really just hasn't been addressed very much is

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Obviously, physical danger is one thing to deal with and figure out how are we going to take care of. But the emotional side of it is something that really hasn't been put into most productions, both for the subjects and for the filmmakers themselves. But on all the empty rooms, we had partnered with Film in Mind. That's a wonderful organization that helps basically manage and

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and help crews go through the emotional journey of telling these difficult stories. So if you ever need any support, if you ever need any connections with therapists, if you need any of that support throughout the project or after, Film & Mind is a great resource and they came on and assisted us on this film. Again, both for the filmmakers, but also for the subjects to make sure that we're operating in a safe and respectful environment while being able to tell the stories that we need to tell. So I think that

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Matt Porwoll (30:43.719)

Things like that are really starting to evolve in production, which I'm incredibly happy to see, because for the longest time, it just wasn't part of the conversation.

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Cameron Woodward (30:52.002)

I've never heard of them, that's awesome. I'll have to look them up and chat with them. That's awesome. Shifting slightly, you we're talking a lot about your expertise as a documentarian verite, but you've also shot these like...

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classic dramatic recreations for series like, you know, your LBJ triumphant tragedy and then catching lightning. What in your head, I mean, this is probably obvious for anyone that's listening that is a cinematographer, but for those that aren't, like, what changes operationally for you when you shift from pure verite to recreations? know, crew, lighting, time, budget.

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Matt Porwoll (31:27.889)

Yeah, literally everything. And, you know, I, remember going into, LBJ Triumph and Tragedy and, know, I, this is something that I've never really done before. You know, I've never had a full crew to work with. I've never had the ability to shot list and pre-plan and kind of come up with lighting grids of how we're going to do things. And it was terrifying because my brain.

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really works in the reactionary space. And so when I have this, I would walk into a space, say, well, I need to scout the real location first. And they say, well, this we're actually going to build on a sound stage. And I said, but I need to still understand, like, where would the sun be? Where would it be coming from? What time of day are we doing? I need to have those real anchor points to be able to start to map this stuff off of.

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Matt Porwoll (32:21.319)

But then once we started getting into it, I mean, it's incredible to be able to shift the brain and work from a different side on projects like that.

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Cameron Woodward (32:30.702)

It's like, sir, we will move the sun for you. It's fine.

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Matt Porwoll (32:34.095)

Exactly. And I know, and that was always everyone's response. And I said, but we're filming in the Oval Office. Like people know the orientation of that window is looking in a certain direction. So if we're doing morning and night, I need to have the sun coming from that place. And maybe that's just the documentary and verite side of me, but you know, I like accuracy. but then you could really start to play with it. And it was, it's wonderful being able to have a crew and have real, you know,

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conversations and work stuff through with your gaffer of what's the best approach to light this, how do we do this as quickly as possible because, you know, I'm so used to having to work quickly and efficiently. And generally, once you get on a soundstage and once you have a crew and you have a lot of equipment, quickly and efficiently are two things that don't generally happen. But both from my standpoint and from our director's standpoint, we like to move fast. So that was...

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Probably the hardest thing to initially get over is explaining that to our crew of this is not like shooting a feature film. You know, we are going to do this quickly. So how do we light the environment as if it's natural? You know, how do we light from above, light through windows, being able to put things on a dimmer so we can just say, okay, let's preset. Here's a night look, a day look, and let's go. Let's shoot one or two takes and move on.

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You know, that's still the documentarian mindset and I like to carry that into those, those more involved productions as much as I do in Verite.

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Cameron Woodward (34:05.39)

That's great. So back to Cartellland, you were also a co-producer. When you're that close to both the image and the constraints, what trade-offs become more visible? And what do you wish producers understood better about camera department realities?

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Matt Porwoll (34:23.975)

I think it's nice to be able to see the two sides of it. think when you're just a cinematographer, it's very easy to complain about why am I not getting the support on X, Y and Z. But once you start to have an idea and even just having good relationships with your producer, whether you're on as a producer or not, everybody is under the same kind of constraints, but coming from different angles. So it's good to understand that. I would say that on the projects that I'm

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a co-producer on all the empty rooms, cartel land, the trade. All of these are, I'm more on as kind of a story co-producer as opposed to budget line item type producer. But being able to have those conversations and understand where restraints are, it just allows all of us to work better together because obviously when producers tell you we don't have the time or money for this.

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They're not saying that because they don't want you to do your job. They're saying that because we don't have the time or the money for it. So let's figure out a creative way to make that up somewhere else. And so I think the more that you can understand and be respectful from the whole side of the filmmaking process, then the better the end result's going to be. Cause there's always trade-offs that you can make. You know, even if it's as simple as, okay, we might've had this piece of equipment.

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on these shoot days, but I can get away with not having it on these if it buys us a little bit more time on the ground, if it buys us a later flight in the afternoon so that we can eke something out in the morning, whatever it is. know, I think it's everything is about, you know, finding those compromises.

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Cameron Woodward (36:01.548)

That's awesome. So you just spoke to this slightly, but I'm curious to get more refined. You know, I'm curious, like, what is one thing you always plan for that producers rarely budget enough time for?

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Matt Porwoll (36:13.203)

Interview setup time. I think it's one of those things too that anytime I see on the schedule that we have an hour from crew call to rolling an interview, I always have to question, say, but is that factoring in, we're getting to the house and we have to meet and greet with people before we get there. We have to load in all the equipment out of the trucks.

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Are we running small where it's all just jammed into the back of a minivan? So it's not organized, which is going to take even longer to unload it and reload it at the back end. You know, it's, it's those little time disappears very quickly in very strange places. And so I like to be able to buffer our shooting schedule as much as possible to give us way more time than we would need. Because then what happens is we're going to do it quickly. And then that now just gives us time to be.

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Flexible and creative and say, okay now we're here and we have the flexibility of time What can we do with it without feeling like you know, okay We've we've only budgeted X number of minutes to do this You don't get to think as creatively in that in that space. So I like to think of you know Scheduling a day the same as we would schedule a budget is let's let's pad it a little bit. Let's have some contingency

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If we don't use it, then we look like we came in under budget. And if we do use it, then we came in on budget. So I'd rather schedule our shoot days to kind of look the same way.

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Cameron Woodward (37:43.136)

How about this? What's the smallest crew footprint you've seen actually work?

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Matt Porwoll (37:49.489)

Well, on the trade, we were working in teams of two. So we had a producer and a cinematographer. So cinematographer was doing sound, producer was also throwing in a wireless boom at times, and the two of us were operating and making the entire film on our story line. for me, it's hard to do smaller than two, but two worked incredibly efficiently on that.

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How about a sound or coverage mistake that hurts the most in post?

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Matt Porwoll (38:45.395)

OK.

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Matt Porwoll (38:51.475)

not having a sound recordist. I think a lot of people think, well, I have a great camera mic on my camera, so that's going to capture the sound. But then either that means that you have to shoot everything from the same perspective. So the mic is pointing at the subject, or it means you can't get that coverage to be able to get reverses. Having clean sound is by far the most important thing in a documentary. And I think any director and any certainly any editor will tell you that.

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Matt Porwoll (39:19.591)

but most cinematographers don't think about it. And so at the end of the day, you can have a really bad looking doc with great sound and people will love it. But if you have a great looking doc with terrible sounds, nobody will watch it.

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Cameron Woodward (39:33.57)

This one's maybe a of a long question, but is there a decision that protects both ethics and schedule that you've seen on all of your projects?

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Matt Porwoll (39:44.827)

A decision that protects both ethics and schedule. I think that's, again, it's that padding of the time. As much as you want to be able to quickly get things and get good results when you have time to allow the unexpected to happen, whether that's in story or in issues that arise where someone says, I'm not quite ready for this to be on camera. If we don't have the time,

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to let people breathe and process, then you're not gonna get it.

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Cameron Woodward (40:18.798)

All right, and revisiting the question you skipped over, although I liked how you inverted the question. It was sort of like get rid of autofocus, which of course, like, if you're a watcher of Verite, like that is the like, at this point, oh wow, we're in the space. It's not focused and now it is, but a documentary camera habit you wish more people would adopt.

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Matt Porwoll (40:41.075)

I, okay. Here's one that always drives me crazy is operators that don't listen. The number of people that I have who will pick up camera as second camera in a verite scene and are not wearing headphones, listening to the conversation and purely focusing on the image. Then I probably don't want to work with you again because how in the world are you going to know if you're filming a long lens shot of two people having a conversation?

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Visually, you might get bored, but the second that you cut and walk away, because visually it's not interesting anymore, are you paying any attention to the conversation that's happening? So if you're not listening, you don't know how to shoot coverage.

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Cameron Woodward (41:22.094)

It's a really interesting dance. That's interesting, I love it. Well, listen, Matt, thank you. This has been a really awesome, very clear look at how you think about this work and how you make it happen. That's it for this episode of On Production. Thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for sharing so much, Matt. You're an incredible teacher, an incredible filmmaker, and congratulations with the success on this film, All the Empty Rooms, but also your other projects.

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We're rooting for you at the Oscars, but more so it's just like a really powerful, timely and important story. And I really thank you so much for sharing a bit about it.

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Matt Porwoll (42:02.227)

Well, thank you so much for having me on. was a privilege.