(00:00.118)

Our most important job is making sure people get paid. Because crew is working hard, they're working 12 hour plus days with short turnarounds. They're being asked to do a lot when they're tired. Getting people paid on time makes it so much easier for the production to be successful because everybody's happy when they get paid on time. Not just sending out a cost report, not just sending out money, but actually focusing on sort of the nuances of what I'm seeing in the numbers.

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(00:25.823)

bringing narrative to those numbers.

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(00:28.108)

Week one and two, you can know if a film's gonna be on budget or off.

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(00:31.384)

But isn't that the magic of filmmaking, right? Like when there's trust, everyone's gonna do their jobs well. Exactly. In your experience, what does a strong producer accounting partnership look like,

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(00:42.798)

Kind, smart, funny,

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(00:46.712)

Today, I'm really excited to be joined by Patricia Baury, a production accountant whose work spans both documentary and scripted projects. Her recent credits include projects like My Mom Jane, Pee Wee As Himself, The Python Hunt, and the Oscar Best Picture winner, Anora. In this conversation, I'm gonna dig into the real mechanics of production accounting. know, things like how does cash flow work, cost reporting, documentation, approvals, how does all of that shape the way a production moves day to day?

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and what it takes to keep the financial picture clear when the pace is fast and the stakes are really high. Really want to welcome you, Patricia. Thank you so much for being here. So you've built your career across both documentary and narrative features. I'm really curious, what first drew you into production accounting? And then when did you realize how central your role is to a project success?

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(01:25.848)

Hi, thanks for having me.

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(01:43.596)

Right, so I ran an engineering firm out of Pennsylvania for 30 years. And once my kids were off to college, I said to my husband, I want to go work in the movies. So he was very supportive and I invested in a film and then helped produce that film and then was invited to work on additional films. And then I had a friend who said, hey, I'm producing a tough film. This was pre-COVID, shooting upstate. And I could really use your help.

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but the only place I've got for you is as the production accountant. So would you come onto this film and do the production accounting for me? And I was like, of course I would be honored and delighted. So I found once I got started in that, it was a really good fit for me and nice workable hours, not overnights, know, Monday to Friday, business hours. So I really liked it and found that I could bring a lot to the production from my knowledge from line producing and producing. so.

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From there on, I haven't really done anything else.

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(02:42.956)

Hmm. You've really connected with it, which is awesome. What is the most underwritten part of the job?

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(02:48.204)

That's a good question. would say the ability to sort of look at a budget and understand whether the budget is set up right from the beginning to make success for the project and then communication with all of the production team and all of the department heads to make sure that they're getting what they need to do their jobs.

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You just feel like you're at this like critical nexus point between the entire production it sounds like.

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(03:14.21)

Well, that feels overstated. I feel like my job is to support everybody and give them what they need to do their jobs.

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(03:24.194)

That's great. So I understand, you know, you've also been a line producer. How does that production side experience change the way you maybe approach accounting today?

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(03:33.782)

Right, having done line producing, I would say that when I go to look at the cost report every week, from the cash flow to the budget to the beginning of the spending, I would say that having been a line producer, I feel like I know where, when I see a concern spot, I know what they should be concerned about, or at least I think I have a feel for, if I were in their chair, this is what I would want to know, where are some trouble spots coming.

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What are some things that we can do to help make the production run smoothly? So I feel like that has informed me to sort of help them pinpoint, because they're so busy when you're on a feature and even when you're on a documentary, so busy that it's nice to have somebody who's looking at the money and the finances and the cash flow and how the money's being spent from their chair and sort of highlighting what it is they need to know, not just sending out a cost report, not just sending out money, not sending a trial balance.

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but actually focusing on sort of the nuances of what I'm seeing in the numbers.

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(04:37.122)

Hmm. Bringing narrative to those numbers. sounds like that's super interesting. I'm curious. Like you mentioned that on these productions, like it is sometimes possible to just like, you know, you're, you're doing the job, you're generating the reports, but you're not bringing the narrative to, to the numbers. And then also like that a production is intense, like that there's a lot of workflows and there's a lot of moving pieces from your vantage point as a production accountant. there like.

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Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Thank you.

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a singular or particular workflow that you wish every show standardized from the start to help facilitate a smoother journey.

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(05:15.064)

That's a great question. And the answer is not just one. I have a great team that I work with. And we always request, like in the first week of prep, that we have a meeting with the production team. And we have a checklist that's like three pages long. And it's all the workflows. It's accounts payable workflows. It's payroll workflows. It's P card workflows. It's cost reporting workflows. It's

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It's every facet of everything that we do, we have established workflows that we try to follow and that we try to ask the production teams to follow. And that comes from, we often work with the same production teams over and over. And so that's been honed and changes, has changed over time, but it's really efficient. The workflows that we have are really efficient. It makes it really easy communication. Like we use the same templates, we use the same forms. We use the same trackers.

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And so everybody kind of gets a feel for how we're doing it and then they can fill in the blanks. And it makes communication really easy so that a coordinator can just look on a tracker and say, yeah, I see where they are with paid per diems or where we are with time cards or start work or wherever. So I would say there's not just one workflow. Our entire function has workflows established.

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Is there one thing that you really want in place before cameras roll? You're talking about that's what I like to talk about.

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payroll workflows.

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Exactly. Payroll workflows are the most important. Accounts payable is one thing. Cash flow is one thing. P-card envelopes is one thing. But our most important job is making sure people get paid. So payroll workflows are, they trump everything.

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Production accounting, as a craft, obviously you think about the general ledger. You think about the cost reporting. You think about the like AP automation. You think about the payment. Like, but you just said the payroll is the most important. Is that because payroll has the most potential for like liabilities to the production and making all of the crew angry if you're not paying them one time? Like, why did you say that? Like why is payroll the most important part to you in terms of the entire ecosystem of what a production accountant and their team does?

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Because crew is working hard, they're working 12 hour plus days with short turnarounds. They're being asked to do a lot when they're tired. And so we really feel like, or I really feel like getting people paid on time accurately, like makes it so much easier for the production to be successful. Cause everybody's happy when they get paid on time.

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That's great. I want to pivot just slightly, which is like, you know, whether it's a really big show or a small show, you know, projects scale, like that's what's so interesting about our industry as so as budgets or complexity of a project scale get larger. How do you think about building and then structuring your own accounting team? Like what changes between a smaller project and a larger scale feature in terms of how you think about staffing, delegation, oversight? What's your

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You know, mentioned moments ago, the workflows that you like to use, but how do you think about that considering the fact that production is sometimes elastic in terms of the size of the show?

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Sure. I would say that a team built for success, and that doesn't mean you always get what you want, but a team built for success, like a $1 million movie, and I'm talking about features now, not documentaries, only features. A $1 million movie can be done by one production accountant. Anything from like one to five or six can be done with two, a production accountant and a payroll accountant, like the two people working together. Anything from five to 10.

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needs three or four people and anything from 10 up needs four, five, six, something like that. And so, and the team gets structured. The top production accountant is in charge of managing everybody, but also accounts payable and cost reporting. And the payroll, my right hand that I always work with and try never to not work with, she always handles payroll. And so I'll give her an assistant if there's some, if the show is big enough. And then the accounts payable.

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I'll have somebody who works for me on the accounts payable side. And then if we have a big enough budget, then we also get a clerk who runs around and chases receipts from everybody.

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(09:34.93)

I'm really curious from your view. mean, you had this interesting entry point into the industry where you actually like had a lot of career experience outside of the industry. You invested in a movie, like you sort of got your foot in that way. What kind of people are you looking for when you're growing a team to handle more complexity?

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(09:52.344)

Kind, smart, funny.

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In that order. I love it.

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Pretty much, yeah. Maybe smart, kind, funny. depends, but luckily the team that I work with all the time, like I work with the same people film after film after film, and they are all equally smart, kind, and funny. So it's really, we have a great time. We really like what we're doing.

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(10:18.606)

But that's awesome. know, producers, financiers, department heads, crew, vendors, everyone seems to need something from accounting. How do you build a single source of truth so you can answer questions quickly and confidently?

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As you are aware, the accounting software is key to having the right platform, being able to find what you want easily, to be able to track workflows and approvals and what's been paid and what hasn't been paid, and to be able to easily pull payroll reports. The accounting platform is really the key to the answer to that question

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(10:55.735)

Is there something that you've done over these productions you've worked on that has improved sort of like how you get to financial clarity on a show?

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(11:04.76)

really nice question. And I appreciate that you asked that. I found, unfortunately, through failure and through making mistakes, that one of the biggest trouble spots on an indie film, again, we're talking about narratives now, features narratives, not documentaries, is that in the thick of prep and production, departments get behind on their record keeping. And so one thing that I always do and have done since late 2023,

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is I always manage the P card envelopes, whether I do it myself or the person who works for me on the accounts payable side. We make Tuesday's envelope day and we do all of the department envelopes. We do every card holder's envelopes for them. And the only thing they have to do is upload their receipts in real time. So we have a deadline of Mondays where they have to get all their previous week's receipts in.

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Tuesdays we do the envelopes, Thursdays we send out cost reports. And so the cost reports are the true spend up to date of what's been spent on the show. And that's different from other, from what I understand, that's different from other production accountants because you often can't get your department heads to do their envelopes till after wrap. By then you don't know if you're over budget or where you are in your budget. So that's what we do. And the one...

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thing that's key to that success is not everybody can get their receipts in on time. And so we tag all the transactions that have missing receipts and then we send out to the set deck department, hey guys, we've put these into the cost report, these line items in the cost report, but we don't have the receipts yet. Give us the receipts so we can make sure that they're coded properly and that we can succeed on the tax.

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(12:52.256)

In theory, that cadence sounds wonderful to many production accountants, but when I talk to lot of accountants, adherence to that schedule or a schedule like you just proposed can sometimes be challenging. What have you seen that has worked to sort of get that cadence into the minds of department heads so that they're actually delivering for you the backup that you've

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(13:10.936)

that you need? That's great question. There are two parts of it. One, we have an agreement that before we give anybody any money, we make them sign an agreement that says, I understand that Patty and her team will do my envelopes for me, but I must have my receipts in by Friday or Monday for this to happen. And if not, they won't do my envelope for me. And so we make them sign an agreement, an initial like the, you that I downloaded the app.

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You know, I know how to do the receipts and if I need help, I will ask. And then I tell them, you don't have to do your envelopes. You don't have to do your envelopes. All you have to do is put your receipts in. That is all you have to do. And I'll tell you what, the joy on people's faces when they get that answer is usually enough to persuade them to do it. I, again, I'm very lucky to work with a lot of the same line producers and then a lot of the same department heads. There's a lot of crossover in the New York indie film world.

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And so I often get, I'm so glad Patty's on this show with her team because we don't have to do our envelopes, know, that kind of thing. It's embraced and loved as opposed to how do I get them to do it? It's really not hard to get them to do it. 

(14:22.83)

something else I constantly hear from UPMs, production accountants, executives is cashflow, cashflow week to week. On a fast moving production, what does strong cashflow management look like in practice? Like what are you checking every week to stay ahead of surprises?

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(14:42.69)

I usually take the budget in the first week of prep and I do a week by week, prep week one, shoot week one, two, three, whatever the shoot weeks are and then the wrap. And I try to anticipate the, or line out the, and I take all the budget codes along the column and I literally say, okay, we need this much money for this in prep week one, prepping two, everybody's employment codes, all the,

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expense codes up front are all the bonds that you have to pay, you know, and then I do it week by week, knowing that if the bonds are due on the first day of prep, I need the bonds in the bank the week before. So I set up with a cushion of when the money needs to go out of the bank. And I sit down with the producers and the line producer and we go through the, when the funding tranches are coming in.

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And I try to make sure they understand there's a lot of money that's gonna go out the door right away and you need to brace yourself for that. Don't think that if you're gonna raise a million dollars that you can put in 100,000 over 10 weeks, it doesn't work that way. You need all that money upfront. And so, you you need to really have the funding tranches. And in fact, that's one of the questions that I ask is the cashflow. I asked that before I ever accept the job because I wanna know, you know, I wanna see

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Is the money there? And do you understand that a lot of the money has to go out upfront? And so that's a great question. I was talking to your colleague, Anna yesterday, and I gave her an example of one of the nice benefits of working with the same department heads and same line producers on multiple shows. I had a costume designer that I worked with in January, February of 2025 for the first time, and she spent a lot of money upfront, maybe almost twice her budget.

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And everybody's kind of panicking like, my gosh, you know, but she's, she's one of the hottest indie costume designers and she's fabulous. And she has a whole, because she's so popular, she has a regular team that's really professional, but she also has interns begging her for work. And so she promised me, Patty, please, I need this money upfront because we've got to do this and we got to do that. And as soon as we do it through the fittings for the actors,

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(17:06.989)

my interns are ready to do returns. And so the returns will start to happen, you know, week one, week two, and then the money comes back to the show and you can use it for other things. And I was like, you know, that's a big risk. Doesn't always happen. Sometimes you get costume designers who don't have that kind of staff and the returns take forever. You you go double the budget and you don't get the receipts. But she did exactly what she said she was going to do. The returns came in right on time and she was right on budget.

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So then I did another movie with her later in the year and the cast had, cast number one, the lead actress is a fashionista, it girl, and cast number two is a pop star. she was like, I said, my gosh, before she ever even started, said, she's gonna need three times her budget before prep ends to give these amazing,women their options for the fittings. And so I went to the line producer and the producers and I said, I want to front her three times her budget upfront, but I promise her team will get the returns in and the money will be there. know, as soon as the fittings are done, the money will be back. The returns will come in and the money will be back. And they took my word for it. And in fact, it did happen that way. And the pop star asked this costume designer, to do her tour. like, so it was like, felt like a good job and given so many options and like she, the costume designer was positioned to do the best job she can do with the money. That's a cashflow thing because she needed three times her budget upfront and everyone was like, no. And I said, look, I'm going to vouch for her because I've worked with her before and I know she gets the job done.

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(18:55.278)

I love that story. I love that story because oftentimes when we think about production accounting, production reporting, we're thinking about coding, thinking about all of the like tactical work, but like what you just described is like super based on trust and understanding and context. And also like having that trust and context actually improved the outcome of the production itself because

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You are managing the cashflow in order to allow more time and thought into prep. And then because you were able to know how it was all going to come together, which this is something I've been really fascinated by recently in the last couple of months is thinking about the impact of more automation, more AI, more tooling to kind of take away a lot of the very challenging admin jobs so that like

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smart, thoughtful accountants like you can actually then think about the resource allocation in these ways that actually matter with a production being better than it would have been if you weren't able to do that. That's really cool.

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(20:07.704)

That also comes with hand in hand with having, you she did the job in the first movie that we worked together. She did exactly what she said she was going to do. So for me, there was little to no risk and also.

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(20:18.474)

right? Like when there's trust that everyone's going to do their jobs well, boom, things really come together.

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(20:26.762)

Exactly. I've been incredibly lucky to work with major leaguers and all-stars in my career from the very beginning. And so I wouldn't go to bat like that for a new person that I don't know, but having the good luck to work with the same teams over and over and establish these workflows, establish this trust, you know, and figure it all out. I have a ton of fun. I love what I'm doing.

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(20:49.696)

I think that's great. What is a question you love on the cashflow side of the conversation we were just discussing? Like what is a question you love when a producer asks early?

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(20:59.618)

I think the question I hate the most is when will I get my tax credit money back?

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That depends on the state.

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And I think a question that a producer or a line producer asks early is, how are we going to do on this budget? Is this budget set up for success? I think that's a really, really important question that needs to be asked early. Is the budget set up for success?

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(21:24.014)

Okay, well that actually leads me to cost reporting, from your perspective, I mean, you mentioned it, it's not just about producing a cost report. It's the narrative behind the numbers. From your view, what makes a cost report useful to the producing team rather than just technically accurate?

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(21:41.294)

So my cost report workflow that I recommend, and again, like workflows are always dynamic, but the cost report workflow that I recommend to my Line producers and producing team is on Thursdays, I send Thursday night after payroll has been incorporated in the cost report and on the P card envelopes and all the accounts payable, everything is done. On Thursday night, I send a draft cost report to the Lime producer.

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And I put on there, here's where, here are your negative ETCs. Like I think the negative ETC line is always, you know, really important to look at first to see where you've spent more than your budget is. Like here are your negative ETCs that we need to look at. And then the next thing I put on there is this cost report includes payroll for week ending this SAG payroll, but doesn't include CAS number one, cause their deal hasn't been signed. that money is still coming in, you know. So I include a list of what

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what's included in the cost report, what's not included in the cost report, and then where my concerns are. And highlight something like, hey, the props team has spent 100 % of their budget and you're only in week two, you need to get them to either do returns or rein it in. You need to go talk to them and find out what's going on. So Thursday nights I send a draft cost report only to the line producer, just for her notes and for her to think about it or to give me

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some context. I usually work remotely, I don't work on set. And so then she says, yes, of course, we knew that the props department was going to be over and, you know, in this much because we approved this for this scene and, you know, blah, blah, blah, it is. And so she gives me the context, sends me the notes on where to adjust the ETCs to cover from here to there or pull from contingency. And then I, Friday mornings, I fix the cost report based on the notes that come in. And then we send it wide to the producers and we have an

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a standing Friday afternoon cost report meeting with all interested parties, producers, studio, whoever it is that wants to know. And that way the line producer is prepared, I'm prepared. It's a true weekly reflection of the expenses to date. And we go through it. I'm a big Trial Balance fan. Like I think Trial Balance gives the best snapshot of the money on a show of any of the documents. And so...

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(24:05.742)

The concerns, when I look at the concerns, I look and say, you know what, this department should be at 60 % of their spend, but they're really at 75, what's going on here? And then it's a really, it's a question for production team, what's happening here? Do you know that this is going on? And that comes, that starts in prep and especially in week one and two. In week one and two, you can know if a film is gonna be on budget or off budget.

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(24:28.832)

does that affect your world? Like if there is a big issue in terms of just like how the budget is being allocated maybe earlier than it then people thought like how does that change your world in the accounting office?

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(24:40.342)

Well, start to look at payroll always is the most important. So for me, I always try to make sure that the funding tranches are ahead, you know, that I have two weeks of payroll in the bank and I don't touch that. Like I take that out of the operating funds because payroll is for me the most important thing. And after that, when are those accounts payable?

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For the films that I work on, the funding has really not been a problem, and we really don't go over budget very often, with the line producers that I like working with. And so, as long as that's happening, there are no issues. But if it is looking like there's gonna be some trouble, then we sort of push it to the producers and say, here's the trouble that we're seeing two and three weeks from now, how do you want us to address this? And then they either have to talk to the director and the...

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producing to the production teams and the departments to like, can you pull this in? My job is just to say, yikes, look at this. But my job is not to necessarily solve those problems on set or to raise a little bit of extra money. And that's why I like production accounting because I get to help them look at it in advance, but I'm not in the hot seat to solve those problems. But it really doesn't, as long as you're looking in advance, you can usually solve the problems and it doesn't become a problem.

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(26:00.462)

I love Patty, your strategy on building trust with department heads and individuals by saying like, Hey, we're going to take off some of the burden of like, card transaction reconciliation, but you need to promise me that you're going to help me out. If I'm going to take that on for you, please get your receipts in. Please come talk to me. I love that approach builds trust is good for the production payroll is important. P cards are important. I also want to talk about like invoices. like, you know,

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Let's call it 40, 50 % of the production spend is on labor. The other half or a little more than half is oftentimes on vendor spend. What does a clean, realistic approvals and invoice workflow look like from your perspective on a show that's moving fast? You also mentioned incentives a little while ago, like qualified spend and tracking it and coding it is very important. know, where do you see teams win back the most time with small process fixes on that piece of the puzzle?

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(27:01.134)

That's a great question. don't put anything into, so there's two parts of that. One is receiving a clean, accurate invoice with the right documentation, the W-9 and hopefully ACH information, because that's how everybody wants to get paid these days. we ask everybody that's sending invoices for payment to accounting to verify and say, this is ready to be paid.

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W9 attached, ACH attached. And so usually the departments are very cooperative on that. And they know that we will either ask, are we free to chase the W9 or would you like to do that with your vendor? And so they know that if they send an invoice that doesn't have a W9, we won't pay. And so, you know, they get in the habit of getting the W9 and the ACH information as part of the package that they send to accounting. So I try to make sure that when the invoices are coming to us, that they've already been

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reviewed by the person who placed the order, if that makes sense. Whether it's the production team ordering camera equipment or G&E equipment, or whether it's the set deck team ordering things or placing rentals, we ask them to review it before. And when they send it to us, they say, this is reviewed and good to pay. And so then we take that package, which is invoice, a W-9, and preferably ACH payment information.

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We put it together in the approvals workflow and then we send it off to the line producer who approves.

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(28:31.574)

I want to pivot slightly, which is just like, you have this awesome body of work between narrative, indie films, documentaries. You know, you, I mentioned it earlier, but like my mom, Jane, Peewee is himself the Python hunt. And then obviously like, you know, huge hit, Anora from an accounting perspective, what's the difference in your mind about managing a project where the schedule may shift based on access or real world events versus one with like a very tightly planned shoot schedule.

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know, locations is already picked up where they're going to shoot, et cetera.

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(29:05.046)

It's like the story of the tortoise and the hare. The features are the hare, like Jack Rabbit out, you know, and move fast and get it done. And documentaries are the tortoise, slow, steady. The documentaries I've worked on have not been less, been, most of them have been almost two years before delivery. So from beginning to delivery. So documentaries are very predictable, very steady. Usually you have a good feel for when the

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shoot team is going to be out in the field. again, it's usually very, the documentaries that I've worked on have been small and fleet and fast. And I work with a, like when I do the HBO documentaries, I work with a great line producer who I love, who knows the business inside out. And I'm really just a bookkeeper paying the bills. And so, and running the payroll, but the pay rolls are very small for the documentaries that I've worked on. So the documentaries are steady, predictable.

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When I'm on a feature, usually do my documentary work on Saturday morning. Nobody is ever screaming for payment. It's always slow, predictable, easy, couple hours a week, literally. It's really, really simple work.

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(30:17.742)

Got it. I really enjoyed hearing about how you set up your cadence for cost reporting, like the prep on the Thursday, the Friday standing meeting. I'm curious, you know, with these fast moving projects where, you know, I'm thinking about, I don't know how you ran Anora, but like I would imagine on the indie side, like creative plans can change. Like there's opportunistic things where you can take advantage of it and improves the picture.

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There's downside things that change, you gotta pivot. How do you track changes and then communicate cost impact in a way that keeps everyone aligned without turning accounting into a bottleneck? mean, you obviously talked to me about how you manage your cost reporting cadence, which maybe that's the answer to how you do this, but curious if...

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(31:04.014)

It really is. there's something extraordinary that happens on set, like a scene doesn't get finished and they need to stay and finish it, we usually have prepared hot costs in advance so that if you need to stay on for three more hours, you have a meal and you have the overtime costs for the crew. So you know that in advance. And it's really, from my perspective, there's really not...

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From the production accounting side, there's really not that much. If we have the weekly cost reporting meetings and everybody feels very, very solid that all the costs are really up to date through Thursday morning for a Friday meeting, there's really, it's really, I appreciate your question, but it's just, it's not all that relevant because we've already addressed it as it's happening based on the real numbers. Sorry to sort of not give you a dramatic.

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(31:58.574)

answer, really it's not, in my world, on the films that I've been working on, it hasn't happened.

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(32:06.06)

Look, good prep solves a lot of problems without question, right? It makes sense. You had mentioned tax incentives a little bit earlier, that that's one of those questions that comes up. When do I get my money? When you know a product will pursue tax credits, which I would imagine is most

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(32:24.092)

All features, right?

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(32:25.72)

How does that change the way you approach prep? Like, do you find yourself working backwards from the audit or certification requirements and then building processes early to defend that credit later? How do you kind of approach it?

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(32:38.114)

Great. That's a great question. So the answer is yes. A lot of the workflows are based on a successful defense of the tax credit. And so I have focused mostly on New York productions. And so I know what the New York tax credit audits look like and what they ask for. And so I design all of my record keeping from the beginning to successfully defend a tax credit audit.

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So it's really, we'd get the coding upfront and we drop in to all the records, the proof of the payment. We use descriptions. I like to have a wordy description so that if it's not me defending the tax credit, somebody else can pull the transaction and say, yeah, I know exactly what this is, know, that kind of thing. So I'm big on.

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detailed descriptions with specific dates and information. I always counsel my producers to err on the side of successful tax credit if you're not sure or if it's a little bit iffy. Don't say, go ahead and code it for the tax credit. I err on the 100 % successful audit. Do it right.

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(33:54.498)

first time. This is important and actually I'm curious if you can speak to this. I love that approach because like you can seriously affect the amount of money that a production gets back when or if an audit is not clean, right? Like, and so that makes sense to me that you would take such a, not even conservative, just like a very careful approach there. Can you describe maybe like what that audit process looks like for listeners that haven't gone through it before?

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(34:20.949)

Yeah, I like to ask my producers and line producer to use one of the New York State approved tax credit auditors. And so because it pulls you in much faster to the return. And so the fee for using one of the approved New York State tax credit auditors is often offset by the amount of time you save over, it could be years with the way the New York tax credit has been.

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And so.

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(34:51.714)

and get updated, thankfully, but yes.

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(34:53.888)

Right, exactly. So, but you know, in the past, it has been updated. You're correct. But as I have actually been asking, please put in the budget using an auditor. And then when you are ready to lock the picture, you know, you're ready for delivery and assuming you're going to use the post credit as well, you lock everything in the GL, you're done. And then the tax credit auditors that I've been working with, they have a list of deliverables that they need. And so,

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In prep, I get the list of deliverables. I set up a tracker for that. And it's everything from the locked budget to the initial tax credit application, production reports, all the SAG contracts, know, like all of the deliverables. It's not just the GL and, you know, what's eligible for the credit. It's all of the items that they, you know, the screenshot of.

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made in New York, know, everything that goes through. It's a full list of deliverables for a successful tax credit, and we set up a folder structure for that. Then you, most of the auditors want a GL that's divided up by the different tax credit codes. And so you set that up, you make sure it matches the template that they require. So you have like some checks and balances that you have to have in there, and then you send it off and they do an audit.

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And they say, okay, give us the proof on these 100 items or whatever, know, what your budget size depends on how many they're asking you for, but they ask you to do the proof. And so then we, we pull the records, we pull the invoice, the W9, you know, the proof of the payment, you know, the, it's coded this certain way. And we put those in a folder structure and we number them based on the audit request. Then they take it back, review it, say, great job, everything matches.

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You know, you pass and here's your credit.

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(36:51.783)

which is what happens if you work with Patty.

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(36:54.51)

Well, like I said, don't advocate cheating. feel awkward. Can you cut that out? I have to be careful when I say it. I'm not suggesting that other production accountants...

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(37:07.98)

No, no, no, no, no. It's about the... It's not about cheating. We don't need to cut it out. This is a really important, I think valuable and insightful piece from you, which is when you build that trust with the department heads to get the receipts in, to do the petty cash envelopes correctly, to really meticulously make sure that things are coded correctly, not only does that helping your production every Friday when you're doing your cost report meeting and you're looking at your trial balance,

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It also materially impacts the tax credit audit process and getting money back into the hands of the production. Because when they audit 200 transactions, it's there. And so this was my point is like, this is why I'm so thankful you explained that, Patty. I really appreciate it. Cause like, if there's even one transaction in there that is like questionable and the auditor sees it, it's sort of like, it's not fire, but it's smoke. And it's just like, doesn't make for a clean close.

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(38:06.134)

Right. And you know the rule is that if you fail to prove tax credit eligibility on a certain percentage of your audit, you come back for a second round and it's three times as many, you know, pulls, in which case, you know, if you fail the first time, you're going to fail the second time or third time. And it's just not worth it.

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(38:27.788)

Right. Thank you for explaining all that. That is like so, so, so important to how these productions get made effectively and profitably and in really great ways. To this end, like on-rap delivery partnership, you know, what do you wish producers understood earlier so that closeout is more predictable and efficient?

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(38:48.076)

I think that I like it when producers understand that during post and during the editing process, once you've gone through the edit, there might be holes in your story that you need to plug and you might need to do reshoots or you might need to do some adjustment.

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to make sure your film tells the story that you want it to tell. And I always wish that producers would understand this and be understanding and make the best, allow the director to make the best movie that they can so that they hold back the contingency and they know and understand that there might be the necessity for reshoots or an additional editor or.

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you know, some kind of adjustment because narrative feature production is fast and furious and what you think you're getting once you go to edit. So your timeline, your ideal timeline might need to be adjusted once you get through the edit and the notes because you might need to make some changes after the edit is done.

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(40:06.792)

Mm-hmm. I love it. In your experience, what does a strong producer accounting partnership look like day to day?

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(40:13.902)

Kind, smart, funny. Same things. People make mistakes, I make mistakes, producers make mistakes. It's how you communicate and trust, obviously. I think the weekly cost report meetings are critical to establishing that trust and rapport. And that way you also know that your producers, not a lot of producers want to really...

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They really want to be more on the creative side and not on the, even though their responsibility is to be on the money side, they really want to be more on the creative side. And if you ask them to give you a half an hour once a week, and it's really the lime producers ask, not my ask, then to sit down and understand that everything's going great money-wise, then they can go off to their weekend and be creative and feel confident that they're doing their job. if things are a little bit, if there are some concerns,

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then they're aware of the concerns so that when they're making creative decisions on set, they can keep that in mind. Did I answer your question? I'm sorry, did I answer your question?

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(41:20.086)

Yeah, you absolutely did. It makes a ton of sense. would say my one feedback was it's actually, think you corrected me. It's actually, it's smart, kind, funny. So perfect. I love it. Patty, thank you so much for walking me through how you really approach the systems and habits that make the productions you work on make sense. It's been really fantastic to speak with you. And I mean, think like my takeaway.

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(41:30.444)

Again, it just depends.

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(41:47.854)

you know, whether you're producing, coordinating, running a production office, working in accounting, like the theme here I see is that clarity compounds and that when a workflow and a cadence is clean and communication and trust is tight, that the entire production gets a lot more confidence. So thank you so much. It's been really a pleasure speaking with you.

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(42:08.812)

Thank you so much for having me. really appreciate this and thanks for all the good work that you guys do in supporting production accounts.

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(42:14.328)

Of course.