Why Film Editing Is Emotional Work with Viridiana Lieberman

Welcome back to On Production, a podcast brought to you by Wrapbook. Today, I'm joined by Vera Deanna Lieberman, a filmmaker and editor whose work spans some of the most acclaimed documentaries and series of the past decade. Most recently, they've edited The Perfect Neighbor, which is an absolutely incredible film. It premiered at the 2025 Sundance Film Festival where it won the US Documentary Directing Award, and then went on to earn her the Critics' Choice Documentary Award for Best Editing. Her work on the film has been widely praised for its precision, empathy, and narrative depth. Her credits also include the Emmy-winning The Sentence and the Oscar-shortlisted Call Center Blues. She also directed Born to Play, her feature debut that aired on ESPN and ABC following a woman's tackle football team and expanding on the research behind her book. sports heroines on film. In this conversation, we'll talk with Vera Deanna about the craft and collaboration that bring documentaries to life, how editing decisions shape production, what it takes to build trust with subjects and directors, and where the future of nonfiction storytelling is headed. We're thrilled to have you on the show with us today. Let's get into it.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (01:20.334)

Thank you, I'm excited.

‍

Cameron Woodward (01:22.375)

So you've built this really remarkable career in nonfiction storytelling, working across, you know, these documentaries, series, and now features. What drew you to editing as a way of shaping stories and how did that evolve into directing and writing your

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (01:40.546)

I mean, I am, you know, I'm a pretty classic story. Like I was a kid growing up who wanted to make movies. And I will tell you that I grew up watching a lot of sci-fi films with my father and I dreamed of making space epics at studios and kind of, know, movies was, they were in the blood. And when I went to film school, I was drawn to editing. There was something about it and the puzzle of it and putting it together and,

‍

All of it, there was just a lot in the language of editing that resonated with me. And then I also found a skillset that I was kind of growing very quickly. But I did dream of directing and did dream of writing and still had my sights set on the stars, literally. And when I graduated film school, I actually said the one thing I knew I didn't wanna do was documentary. And at the time I'm embarrassed to admit that I had not had a great documentary education.

‍

that felt cinematic. It kind of felt like this very, you know, power pointy kind of dry, like I had the most ignorant cliche look at Docs. But so when I went out and I started my filmmaking journey, trying to figure out what I was gonna do, I was still in that narrative path. And then I met a filmmaker named Cheryl Frojinek, who's incredible documentary filmmaker.

‍

And I asked her if I could come into her project. She was looking for an editor and I had never cut a doc before. And she was very kind to not laugh in my face and instead said like, well, why don't you come in as an archival researcher? And I'm trying to look for an editor if I have a little more experience. And anyways, I worked my way up on that film, fell in love with documentaries, realized how cinematic they could be. And the editors on that film led me to the next films and the next films. And you know, was all this kind of word of mouth through experience.

‍

and connections and relationships building. I think that I bring that path up only because I think that the things I didn't connect with in documentary when I was, and by the way, I had not seen enough, but the things I wasn't connecting with is that emotionally driven character narrative, expansive, immersive experience. That is, for lack of a better term, the high that I chase in every doc I'm a part

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (04:01.666)

You know, it's like not only am I moved so much by the concept of getting to be a part of telling stories that exist in our world, that can do incredible work, that could be tools and teach us things, but that the experience of watching them can feel as cinematic as I always yearn for in any film that I see. So, you know, that skillset slash dream slash fire in me goes into directing and writing all the same. I mean, I think obviously as an editor, I am

‍

given the privilege to work on films that I would have never dreamed of making myself. Like there's a lot of doors open, particularly the honor I have to cut a lot that I've had to edit a lot of people's personal projects. It's like a story that only they could tell and that I get to be a part of that and helping them shape it and make it what they want it to be. And then as a director, I'm still dreaming. The board to play film was such an act of cure.

‍

labor of, as they say, you know, like me calling in all the favors and journey, you know, driving up to Boston to film that team and spend a year after so much passion towards representation of female athletes and my writing and all of this. And so that film was the culmination of like a decade of writing and research. And now I'm on the journey to figure out what that next thing is that's mine. And in the meantime,

‍

Editing allows me to be a part of so many incredible stories and constantly kind of go to the mental gym and work the muscle and learn so much from all these incredible collaborators I work with. So I think that all those pathways, know, in writing is obviously I still, you know, create everything I can. As an editor, I always feel that I'm a writer, but you know, I still write my sci-fi fun. But I think that all of those things.

‍

are factors in a general love of storytelling and the craft of it all, which always sounds very pretentious, but I think I'm very precious and romantic about what we do. So it's, you know, I love the opportunity to talk about it.

‍

Cameron Woodward (05:57.102)

Well, I love that you have a deep care for like epic space sagas. That's amazing. I didn't exactly build up our interview to go in that direction, but that is awesome. And I do, it does touch on something I think is interesting where like you have as an artist this ambition for these like big epic sprawling entertaining stories. And yet your aperture is very focused at least in the last couple of years on these very true stories, which then

‍

Cameron Woodward (06:26.029)

enables you to, as you said, tell powerful stories that can make an impact on the world, but then also still be driving something that's compelling and entertaining. Like the word entertaining doesn't necessarily mean that the subject matter is good in terms of like, like what happened in the book isn't a good thing, but it is, it makes you sustain your attention, which is really hard to do in a world of TikTok and Instagram reels. Like there's something really valuable there.

‍

Cameron Woodward (06:54.869)

Like, so in this latest film, like The Perfect Neighbor, you can see it on Netflix, fantastic. It's gotten a lot of press. It recently earned you the Critics' Choice Documentary Award for Best Editing. With that said, from your perspective in the edit room, what made that project unique in terms of process or collaboration? And then more so, as you do look forward to these other opportunities, what did it teach you about where documentary filmmaking is headed?

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (07:24.432)

yeah, great question. All stacked, all the questions you put in that, brilliant. So, The Perfect Neighbor was a personal project for Geeta, who I've worked, Geeta Gambhir, the director of The Perfect Neighbor. I've worked with her on a handful of things, that span series, feature, TV, shorts, we've kind of done a little bit of everything, and built a beautiful trust. And when she came to me with this film, which was...

‍

not only a personal film for her, but one that she had already acknowledged might be able to push our form and do something new. was incredible, it was thrilling. And as hard as this film is, of course, to watch and process and engage with, as a editor, you know, and someone who loves Geetta very much,

‍

The challenge fired me up. I mean, I couldn't wait to unlock this. And when she first said to me, I think it can be made with all these materials, you know, without us going kind of outside of this approach. I was like, we will. I mean, I was determined and I really held hard and fast about that. I was like, this is to make a film that feels undeniable. I mean, we do our best, you know, in the unbiased objectivity of it and also undeniable by.

‍

making it completely comprised of evidence was such an incredible opportunity, which I realize isn't available with every story, right? This wouldn't have been possible if we didn't have two years.

‍

Cameron Woodward (08:54.217)

It does make me most compelling about the series though. Like I think about like King of Kong, totally different subject. Like there's no narrator. There's no like sitting down, you know, like it's just this really pure storytelling.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (09:11.756)

That's it. And I think deeply seated and embedded that is something that I have been concerned about in the form of documentary recently, which is that we've lost trust in the audience to observe and unpack and relate and process so many things from a film. We've kind of like closed some doors and honed it to handhold more and try to really make you know exactly what you're seeing and what you're supposed to be feeling.

‍

And with this, had the opportunity to create a story that, engages with Stand Your Ground laws, but also engages with intersections of racism, classism, economic strata, state, you know, it's like, there's a million layers to this. And every time I watch this film, even now that it's done, and I've seen it a thousand times, I take something new from it. Like still, to this day, you know, this new nuance to it. yeah, I mean, getting involved in this film and having the challenge of committing to that approach

‍

And then Gita did also say to me, you know, it feels like a horror film. So there is genre play in this. I mean, when you talk about momentum, the propulsive experience of it, you know, there is a lot of patience, which is something I've always yearned to be a part of doing in the sense of giving the audience the opportunity to observe and feel the rawness of something. And at the same time, obviously in the night of the event, there is a full sensory, you know, walls closing in.

‍

impending feeling that you can, you know, a lot of chaos, a ton of energy, that's a ticking time clock on Anjika's life. there are, you know, we used cinematic tools, we did, to be able to tell a narrative-driven story, and at the same time, embraced the materials for what they are, you know, which was a really powerful thing that I will take with me forever because that's something that I've tried to do.

‍

in different ways with other films. And I think that sometimes people get afraid of what an audience can handle. I think people get, and that some of it's mapping the film, as I like to say, like it's like not just the algorithm. It's when people are trying to say, well, this didn't work here, so we can't do it. Versus saying, well, what's our film doing that only our film can do? And how do we trust and stand by this vision? So if there's one thing that the perfect, I mean, there's a million things the perfect neighbor has gifted me. One of the headlining things it has

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (11:34.848)

is to trust my instincts and to kind of say, well, what film are we making? And what film do we want to see? And what film do we think can do the work? And trust that and see what happens. And take it out into the world and engage with it. And not kind of let everything kind of formulaically try to put it in a box. It's like, I wanna meet every film for who it is. And this has really proven to me that that's possible in a really empowering way.

‍

Cameron Woodward (12:03.661)

It shows it speaks for itself in many ways. You mentioned your collaboration with Gita and you all have worked on a lot. I'm curious from a production and a post-production standpoint, what does a long-term editor-director partnership like that look like in practice? How do you sustain creative momentum, as you mentioned momentum, and then evolve your workflow together over time?

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (12:30.456)

Do mean over multiple projects or this one in particular? Yeah, multiple projects. mean, yeah.

‍

Cameron Woodward (12:32.403)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, over multiple projects, then of course, every project is its own universe as well.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (12:39.21)

Yeah, yeah. It's very fun for me to share that Gita directed the first film I ever had a full editing credit on. I mean, I met Gita on a project that I was an associate editor on and kind of said, put me in, coach, you know, and got bumped up to editor and was able to earn that. And she, in that moment, kind of saw me for what I could do when I was still at the beginning of that journey in a lot of ways.

‍

You know, I just remember there was this scene that I cut and I have such a vivid memory of her saying, that's great. saying something kind to me that infused the confidence to be like, I'm doing it. And it felt great. And so during that film, she introduced me to a filmmaker named Rudy Valdez who directed The Sentence. So both those films happened simultaneously. And this is I Am Evidence I'm talking about that was my first full editing credit and The Sentence, which then that year both won an Emmy.

‍

I mean, it was a banana's launch for me. And I acknowledge the magic of that. I I am somebody who believes in the whole, you know, a lot of luck, meets, you know, preparation, like that kind of sensibility about me that I was, you know, and I was so hungry for it. Just, just to put it out there to any, you know, inspiring editors.

‍

I was so hungry as an AE. I mean, I would just cut without being asked. I would over, you know, organize projects without being asked because I wanted it so badly. And sometimes I got me in trouble and sometimes people wanted it. Sometimes people loved it. Some people hated it, but I was, wanted it. when the time came, you know, that launching like a rocket, which I know a lot of that is luck with who I met in the projects and the films and the time. And like, I acknowledge all that. And at the same time.

‍

I wanna believe how I was so ready, you know, and I really was able, so Geetha believed in me from that moment, passed me to the film that kind of broke me on the scene, the sentence, and kept coming back. And every project we took on was very different. I mean, we did a Sesame Workshop, you know, episode, did Call Center Blues, which was a beautiful.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (14:42.546)

short that really spoke to the sensibilities we both love, which was also very patient and sensory and trusting of the audience, which did well. Lounge County and the Road to Black Power, you know, which was a full archival doc that was so, with Sam Pollard, the incredible Sam Pollard, which was so smart, but a different, you know, they're all very different. So I think that scope allowed me and Gita to start to just trust a process together.

‍

and enjoy our sensibility. She also says beautiful things to me, like, you know, do the very thing. And I don't, you know, sometimes I like to dream about what that means, but I also think it just is trusting. It's just trust. And when the perfect neighbor came, she knew that I would fight for that approach. She knew that I would try to find, you know, this type of experience to lead with emotion and character, but also try to push form and do some weird things. Cause I like to go out on the fringe and...

‍

You know, she just knew that. And from the very beginning of The Perfect Neighbor, when I started sending chunks, because she just leads, she lets me crawl in the cave and dream. And then we, you I get all the clay on the wheel and a version of it, and then we hone it together. And from the very beginning, she was like, this is great. It's working, you know, and we could just feel it. We could feel it in our gut. And, you know, I've said this, I've said this many places now, so it's public and I'll, so I'll just keep sharing it. But you know, this was not my full-time job. The Perfect Neighbor was

‍

nights and weekends, I was on another film and Gita was willing to let me figure out how to do it. Like she was like, we want to get it done in the next year, however you want to do it. There were months I didn't touch it and she said, I trust you. And then there were times where I really dug in. And sometimes I think that allowed this to happen because I had, I would have space and come back and have the fresh eyes and I didn't feel fully consumed. I didn't get lost in the weeds. You know, it like, that was great.

‍

But it also meant that it was so instinct driven and we just had to go with what felt right. And by the end of it, it was just like, this is the movie. And everybody in our small team, cause you know, it was made independently and then Netflix acquired us. Everybody in our small team was like, yes. I mean, we never had a moment where we hit an impasse. And that's really, it was an incredible journey with wonderful people who were doing it the right way for the right reason. You all those things that you go, wow, this is so.

‍

Cameron Woodward (16:59.169)

That's awesome, I'm curious, pivoting a little bit from that, of course, incredible.

‍

Cameron Woodward (17:07.745)

Working across both limited series and feature documentaries, how does your process sort of adapt when the delivery format changes? So what are the production or editorial considerations that differ most between, like a single feature arc versus an episodic structure? And the reason why I'm asking this is that you're in this unique position of being really at this intersection of like having an independence. You sort of have the producer's hat on.

‍

an editorial hat on as well, because you're thinking about the footage and the structure of it, and then also you are a director and writer as well. So like, I'm curious how you think about stories when they're sort of in these different, different modes.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (17:48.91)

It's a great, great question and they are very different. Like I don't want to be the person who says, you know, stories are stories and that it, no, they're different muscles. You know, when I'm on a series, I've been very privileged to always be a lead editor or a supervising editor. So beyond the idea of breaking out the episodes and how I'm a structure nut, I love talking structure. I'm a style romantic, you know, it's like all those things to me are separate lanes. We'll drive in and build the bones, yeah.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (18:17.038)

So we'll build, I've also built the wall with the cards and we'll do all of that. I think the larger thing in the series is that I take pride and a lot of care in being a leader, where it's like in features, it's me. I'm in the cave, I'm alone, I'm with the director, we have a small team, we're dreaming together. And it's very focused on a really kind of intimate creative process. And when you go on to the behemoth, like a Disney series, like choir or.

‍

you we are the Brooklyn Saints, that you got a lot of cooks in the kitchen. And if you don't create the creative bubble and the language as a team and figure out who's, everybody kind of has strengths and, you know, different strengths and how to utilize those. And it's a case by case basis. So something I take pride in is leading those teams, finding the vision, but really listening a lot to the folks that I'm working with.

‍

and what they see in it. And sometimes it's like the stronger version as we each have an episode. Sometimes it's we're all on all episodes and we're building the bricks and putting them together. And so it is a very different experience. What I will say is the bones of it, the mechanics of storytelling, the things that work, how to process notes, which notes to take and which not, know, those things are exercised no matter what on the format. And you kind of want to protect that journey.

‍

the characters, the emotional, you know, build, all of those layers. That's the stuff that you get really precious about, whether it's four episodes, six episodes, or one feature film. I will say, I don't have a preference. I love them both for different reasons. I think features, the challenge of doing a feature is such a special thing. I think series is a wonderful communal experience. And then a feature feels such like this purity to me, like that I get so like, wow.

‍

We, the challenge, yeah, of putting this entire story into one brushstroke in a way is something that I have always been more drawn to. But the communal, I've never worked with editors until I was on a series, you know, because I was an editor. And that was amazing to see how different people work and to see what that process is. And one thing I love the most, you know, when I was a kid, and this is to make you laugh, so laugh at me, but I was not good with authority.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (20:43.072)

or not good at getting notes in life. And so I think there was definitely, you know, growing pains when I was in my twenties and coming up to learn how to do that. And now I get excited about notes. I love engaging on them. My instinct does not know. It's like, all right, what does it mean? You know, what's our way in? But also knowing the ones to not take, you know, like having notes going, okay, they're not, they're not getting it. So let's figure out how to make this language clear.

‍

Or, you know, there's also dicier things where people just want to be, you know, hear themselves talk and that stuff is real and we don't talk about it enough. But I think that with the series, that's where I got that mental gym, you know, working on a series and having to deal with a lot of voices, big networks, the state, you're driving a cruise ship. That's stuff where I learned that. And then when I go back into a feature, it becomes so much easier to digest and exciting to.

‍

to challenge in a really cool way. So those are kind of the two differentiations between them, but I love them both for different reasons.

‍

Cameron Woodward (21:50.206)

I mean, I've chatted with editors on this show and I'm thinking about like a great editor named Jijo Reed, who I was chatting with a number of episodes ago. And like his approach is very percussion based. Like he thinks about the beats as an editor, like a drum kit in front of them. What I'm picking up from you, which I think is like, I see it in some of your work is it's this, and you even are sort of mentioning it in your answer here and even in a few answers ago about.

‍

when you were hungry as an assistant editor, like drilling yourself to just get everything laid out with extreme precision. You have, it sounds like your approach is very analytical,

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (22:32.974)

It is very emotional. I'm very emotional. I'm an emotional person. It is analytical and I am an obsessive. I am someone who watches everything. I don't watch it just for process nerd-dom for a second. I'll share. do not watch from start to finish and not without cutting anything. It's not like I watch it all and then I go back. As I watch, I'm assembling and playing, but I want to see everything. And yes, very analytical. love, I...

‍

You could pause anything I've edited on any frame and I'd tell you exactly why we're there and what the intention was. Not that I think people need to know it to enjoy the ride. Yeah, but I care that much about every frame. And then I also, but for me, it's also so emotion and personal driven. It's not just how I connect to it or the people who are a part of the project, but when I think about who's watching the film.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (23:26.134)

without the who being some specific niche audience. It was just kind of like in the experience of watching it, every scene to me feels emotional. Even in an expository, what could feel like a zoom out bird's eye sterile thing. It's just the first step to growing and layering on and creating a journey that will ultimately touch you hopefully and compel you to feel things. it's interesting because I...

‍

If anything feels like it's not feeling, this sounds weird. I'm not saying this as eloquently as I wish, but if it feels flat, something's wrong. And so that's something else that I ask myself while I'm cutting scenes, when I'm kind of cultivating, it's like there's a rough kitchen sinky version, but it's like, what is the most poignant thing in here? And then it's about carving it down so it can do the most work.

‍

Cameron Woodward (24:18.305)

That's fantastic. So pivoting a bit, you had your directing debut with Born to Play. This is a film that follows a semi-professional women's tackle football team for a season. What were some of the production challenges of capturing that world? And did your background in editing inform how you shot and structured the film? So thinking through that project from the production lens and the directing lens.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (24:46.958)

I mean, I'm sure that every person who comes from whatever they do thinks they have the superpower. Like I'm sure cinematographers who go into directing are like, but I know what it's gonna look like. And know, and actors who go, like everybody, I think editors have the superpower because when we are shooting, we always know what we could do with it. Like we know when we have it, we know what's possible. If we didn't get it, we can start to already dream of how we'll solve that.

‍

and it can change every day. mean, at the end of a shooting day, I have cut it in my brain and the next day I could throw it away. But the idea that it's always productive, that it always feels active, that we always kind of have a handle on it. And with Born to Play, I mean, let me say for the record that I no money to make that. I have like a tiny, tiny bit to help. It was...

‍

And a part of that was me not seeking it out because I wanted full creative control at that moment. I just knew I was so on a mission with the representation conversation to create what I want it to be. This like classic sports film that was, you know, the cinematic treatment that their male counterparts have gotten for decades. It's like, how do I do this? Like rough, you know, this team coming together to take on the big game.

‍

But then there's this nuance to it, like, okay, the lights get shut off. And so that's telling you that the resources are lacking, but I don't need someone to sit there and tell you that that's what's happening. So like, it was a lot of that observational stuff that I've seeked out to. But in the making of it, I will share that it was, I was cutting films to pay for that film. just, I'll share that Monday through Wednesday, I was cutting something. And then Wednesday to Sunday, I would drive to Boston and I would just shoot.

‍

I didn't know who it was about. I didn't know what was gonna happen. I did not prep. I learned a lot of what not to do, but sometimes I look back and think that some of the most special moments of that film are because I didn't overly plan. Everything was a discovery. I didn't know that they had locker room chants. I didn't know that the lights were gonna turn off. I was just there and it would happen. And I was like, what was that? And then someone would go, every night at nine, the lights turn off. And I was like, what? And then weeks later, I'm figuring out where in the stadium I'll be at nine every night. And it's like.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (26:53.154)

Things like that were so wonderful in the process of discovery and making that film. And I just went with the whole season. And I remember having a moment near the end of the season, they had lost two games and they were gonna have to go on the road and they were gonna have to win on the road against the teams that beat them to make it to the championship. And I kept being like, if they don't make it to the championship, which is probably what's going to happen.

‍

It's okay, because the goal of the film was about representation and visibility. It's not actually, it's like just seeing them put in the work. So whether they're crying on the fields, you know, for one reason or another, it's a relative, like the point was that, but then they make it, right? Spoilers. And I remember sitting there at the championship and someone said, you know, it's funny when a film, they said, you know, it's funny when a story knows it's being filmed. And I kind of chuckled at that.

‍

And I thought, what is this manifest destiny? know, that we seek out stories and ultimately, I think if we meet them where they are, it doesn't mean you're always gonna win the championship, but it does mean that you always know you have something special to share. And I never, I didn't set out thinking I picked the winning team. You know, I set out to just tell a story about a group of women trying to do this thing and making their own destiny in a sport and in a world that didn't believe they should. So that film, like the, it's the purest.

‍

form of love of me, not for women, just for women's sports, but also like for filmmaking. You know, I called in favors. had one of my best friends, an incredible cinematographer, Patrick Ratchaf. He came on with me on the road to shoot games. You know, we were staying in the most rundown Airbnbs, sleeping in closets and like, you know, just staying in these motels. And it was really indie spirit love. And I learned a lot in that film. And I also learned.

‍

Like you can just do it, like go make it, shoot it. And I'm very grateful that Park Pictures came on board to help me finish it. And then ESPN was incredible because these women have grown up watching themselves on the, I mean watching ESPN forever. And all of a they're seeing themselves on that channel. So everything was really magical about that film. It's still available, you know, on streamers. And I've come so far as a filmmaker since that film, but I wouldn't change a thing. You know, like when I look back at it, it's such a.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (29:08.366)

such a vision of who I was then and I love it, I love it.

‍

Cameron Woodward (29:13.537)

That's fantastic. That's so fun. So I want to, again, switch gears a little bit, thinking about, okay, a product has been made, and then what? So you've been a part of these projects that they're either bought or they get picked up or they're distributed, ESPN, HBO, Sony Pictures Classics, the Criterion Channel, your work has been seen. What have you learned about collaborating with distributors and streamers who have, you know,

‍

distinct expectations for pacing, they are sometimes influenced by the algorithm as you were talking about earlier. They have opinions on tone or length. How do those expectations shape decisions during production and post? mean, surely you don't know necessarily in all cases who's going to buy something and distribute it, but in some cases you do.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (30:03.712)

I've been pretty lucky that the films I've been a part of did not open up edits again after they were purchased. I've heard many stories of that happening. So I don't have an experience, which I'm grateful for, of having to fit it to the brand. I think that what's happened is I've been a part of films that have either broadened a brand by perfect neighbor in a lot of ways. To me, was almost.

‍

I mean, I think we believe it's the antithesis of a true crime genre and how that has evolved. Yet Netflix, who has helped solidify that as this very successful genre, bought us and added us to that conversation, which I think pushed, I'm hoping will push that and open it up into spaces that we kind of dream it could be in seeking out truth and not making things, know, salacious at all, all things that many

‍

many of those have done here and there. it's like, yeah, so that, I think that all the films have been a part of, I mean, I can't even think of a film, I guess Carlos, you're right, Sony Pictures Classics, but they were very supportive the whole time that we were doing Carlos. So I have had a really lovely run in the sense of the independently made features going, being sold and not having to adjust.

‍

you know, it's more about acknowledgement of what they can do and people wanting to join us for the ride. The series, okay, that's different. I mean, I've been on, there is, you know, a mandate of sort. There is an expectation. And sometimes you can really embrace that, right? With choir and Disney, that's a beautiful partnership there. I mean, the themes, the goals of what Disney valued and wanted from that show were great. And we're in line. I mean, of course everybody has notes on.

‍

story or who they want to kind of stand out more and what those dynamics are and how we can grow them and evolve them. But that feels okay, you know. With Saints on Netflix, I feel like we were filming that while we were editing it. And so there was a lot of discovery along the way. And I don't think that film, I mean that show, I don't think where we landed was what was initially pitched. I think it was different. And hats off to Netflix for meeting it for what it was. You know, I think they really could see what we were trying to do.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (32:21.55)

And Rudy, the director of that series, was very good about constantly bringing us back to the idea of giving a voice to those who have not had it before and the representation conversations, which we all value so much. So I'm not gonna pretend it's all like, know, happy roses. I've been in some note sessions where people throw something and you're like, woo, compromising. then you say...

‍

okay, well this is what our intention is, you know? And then they say, well this is what our audience is looking for. And then you say, like acknowledging the business of this is certainly been one of the harder pills for me to swallow, because I've always felt a little renegade, a little fierce inside and radical, where I'm just like, no, never. But even I as an editor have now found Trojan horse sneaky ways.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (33:13.432)

To push it a little, I don't want to make it seem like we need to move the beach with a teaspoon. I think we can make some big swings and I'm always going to fight and advocate for people to do that. And at the same time, acknowledge that there's a big system at work here. And I think once in a while, whenever anything breaks through like the perfect neighbor, think it opens, the dream is that it opens doors for more, more work that's doing really singular, specific things.

‍

And we can start to get excited about that individual voice instead of the things that feel like cops all the time. So yeah, I mean, I don't know if that's really answering the question. feel like I just danced around it. Okay. Good. Good.

‍

Cameron Woodward (33:49.461)

No, it's, yeah. No, no, absolutely. mean, every project is again, 

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (33:58.272)

It really is. It so is. It's such a case by case. Yeah. It's such a case by case. Yeah. And who your execs are. Let me just say, it also matters who your execs are. Cause every company has folks who get it and folks who are, who have their own, you know, not, it's not about agenda. It's literally just that what they're seeking to make. It's like all these voices and all these goals to manage. Yeah.

‍

Cameron Woodward (34:22.615)

pivoting back to something you were talking about on Born to Play, right? Like you're a multi-hyphenate, like in the sense that like as you are driving that project forward, you're able to at least imagine how you wanna structure your footage, which gives you this great advantage, right? Cause like as complexity emerges in real time, you can actually, you're actually editing in like while you're shooting, which is excellent.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (34:40.846)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (34:50.848)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

‍

Cameron Woodward (34:51.947)

Very helpful. And so then I'm curious though, like that's you in a singular sense, but sometimes you work with other directors. And so I'm curious, how do you navigate personally as a craftsperson, the creative handoff between production and, I mean, you're receiving it from production in some cases. So I guess my question more pointedly is in your view, from your experiences,

‍

what can producers and directors do during the shoot to make the edit more effective later on, you know, if they're not a multi-hyphenate, if they're not the one doing the editing.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (35:29.644)

Yeah. I mean, the dream answer for that is to bring editors on early and not full time. I just want like on a practical level, I want to say it's not the idea of, you know, hiring an editor to start editing at the beginning, but it is about finding an editor you'd like to collaborate with and talking to them early when you're kind of discussing what you're dreaming for the project, what you're setting out to make.

‍

and checking in with them and depending on the project, maybe even inviting them out on some shoots, if it's depending on the type of shoot, but any project I've been a part of where I've gotten to kind of be a part of production has been an incredible advantage because not only can I help them discuss what their ideas are and kind of talk about what they have and how it could work and what they could.

‍

try to add, right? Or like get if we wanted to dream in that direction. But I have now have some semblance of what's coming down the pipe. I'm not coming in blank slate. I'm not entering the edit going, okay, now I'm gonna watch all this footage and try to figure out what's here, which has happened. I've been on projects where people just give me a drive with years of footage. They kind of, have a great conversation about intention and what they hope the audience walks away with, but they're not.

‍

But I'm also just like watching it all to see if it's really there and what it is and, you know, trying to kind of make, and if we were along for the journey, I think there'd be something really incredible to not only help probably save a lot of budget by knowing when you've got it and you don't have to keep chasing the same thing over and over again, but also to hit the ground running.

‍

the minute that edit begins. there are steps in fundraising too, where people are like, we gotta make sizzles. It's like, well, now we really know if we're already ingrained in the story, what feels the most productive to do that. Yeah, so I think it's all saving time, but as a creative person, I think even when I talk to sound designers and composers, the dream is that we're all on from the beginning, even if it's just like dipping our toe for a day here and there to get to hear what's happening and what everybody's dreaming.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (37:39.854)

And that comes from both the collaborative voice cool thing where it's like everybody can see themselves in it and have this incredible time and bring their strengths, but also on a practical level to really maximize what's possible from the beginning to the end and do it in a cohesive way. So.

‍

Yeah, mean, the multi hyphenated me, I can separate those hyphens depending on what position I'm in. Like I don't come into every project, obviously being like, well, I'm a director too. It's like, no, I respect who's the director and I respect who's writing or I, you know, if I come in as an editor, I'm wearing my editing hat. But I think that multi hyphenate allows me to be able to make sure that all the time we're using is being highly active.

‍

you know, that there's no, that whatever I can help with along the way or whatever conversations we're having are always very holistic, you know, about the entire process and not kind of getting lost in the weeds. So I get very excited about being able to have that scope of understanding. And then depending on who I'm collaborating with, sometimes it does open up a little bit for them to be like, well, tell me, yeah, like, what are you dreaming about this? And then we get to dream together, which is great.

‍

Cameron Woodward (38:53.709)

I love it. you had mentioned this when we were chatting about Born to Play. You sort of mentioned, you know, that this film represented you as an artist at the time. And even preceding that in 2014, you wrote a book, Sports Heroines on Film. So I recognize that, like, as an artist, as a person, like, you've continued to grow and you're exploring new stories. I mean, you even mentioned, like, sci-fi space opera.

‍

Cameron Woodward (39:20.973)

and I might be in the future as well, But you did, you explored how women athletes have been portrayed on screen. And so I'm curious though, like, and maybe it's, again, maybe this was too long ago that how you think about projects has shifted. I'm sure it has in some respect, but how has that sort of research or your early influences shaped the way you think about representation behind the camera and the kinds of stories that you choose to tell?

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (39:49.974)

Yeah, I mean, okay, very long story short, I was in and out of film work. I mean, if you looked at my resume, it would be like film job and then what? And then film job and why? Like I kept going in and out. And a part of that was me getting burnt out, cutting things that I didn't like, or like PA'ing all the time and getting eaten alive or whatever the thing was, I couldn't get the engine running. So I'd go away and do something weird.

‍

One point I was ground ops for an airline driving planes around and loading bags for a year and a half, like crazy things that would just get me as far away as possible. And then I come back. And when I went to grad school, was, that was one of those moments where it's like, I go, who am I? All right, I'll go back to school. And I come from a family of teachers. So that's in our instincts and thought, okay, I'm going to go back to school. Went for communications. That felt like that was what I was supposed to do. And then took a women's studies class. And I was like, whoa.

‍

And so, in that class was called Sex Violence in Hollywood by an incredible professor, Dr. Jane Caputi. And she unlocked me about representation. Like I was like, my gosh. Like I had learned film theory, I had learned the practice of making movies, but I had never really understood the stakes of kind of what is socially constructed and like what we are all privy to in our experiences.

‍

it on a yes on a very academic and like analytical way, but kind of in an incredibly informing value system and like what stories and how we tell them from the composition of a shot to the entire initiative of telling a story to begin with, you know, and like who's at the center and why. And when I was in grad school, so I switched that was my so that I got a master's in women's and all of those classes.

‍

changed my life because they really did change how I not only saw the world, but how I wanted to engage with it and how I want to tell stories, even in my space opera, right? Like the idea of who is at the center of it and who those characters are, everything became so precious in an important way, where the stakes felt very high and not in a stressful way, in an inspiring way. When then, when I got into documentary,

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (42:07.724)

It was like, wow, this is real. I mean, I have been a part of films that have changed legislation, right? And you're like, wow. So those, when I come onto projects, I am obviously always leading in thoughts of representation, intersections of identity, social constructed ideas of things. You know, I definitely am like, well, why has it always been like that? Does it need to be, or is it because, you know, is that how we all function together, or is that just because it's the only thing we've known?

‍

And that can go deep in story and that can also go in storytelling approaches, right? So like all of those things carry immense value to me. And so I would really credit that degree as changing, you know, what informs the stories I seek out and how I tell them. But the exciting part I like to share is that it's not just about telling stories about women, though that is something I take a high, you know, that is something I'm very passionate about. It's also about telling stories in a way that feels as layered as we are.

‍

and that's really important.

‍

Cameron Woodward (43:06.305)

That is so great. So along these lines, I was in the research for our interview, I saw that you had mentioned that you're interested in pushing storytelling into new forms of approach, which is interesting because from a production standpoint, I'm curious what new techniques or technologies are most exciting to you right now in documentary editing and storytelling and beyond.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (43:31.354)

see for me, it is not technology. And I, and this is, you know, I know we're like veering towards this AI conversation, which I'm not ready to have. kind of a curmudgeonly old lady who hasn't done any of it. Never used the chat GTP. Like I don't, I don't do any of that yet. And for me, the incredible people at adrobi, you know, they regularly teach me all the incredible things that program can do. And I'm sure someday I will activate it. But, but right now, when I talk about that, you know,

‍

I think for me, it's literally in storytelling. I think it's who's telling it, how we're telling it, what we're telling it with, you know, and it's not about technology so much as the choices of perspective. That's what excites me. You know, the perfect neighbor was taking a bunch of materials that were evidence and acknowledging that we could tell the story with only this, you know, that we don't need to have.

‍

interviews to take you through, which is twofold. Number one, we didn't need it because it would have compromised the experience to begin with, think, of understanding the undeniability of the film. But also, as Geeta has so eloquently said many times, we don't need to re-traumatize these folks by having them tell their story again. And so there's other stakes to how we tell stories that we have to stay sensitive to. Do we absolutely need it, you know?

‍

And then there's the dark part of me that certainly thinks about devices and mechanisms, but that's still in the storytelling way. okay, what's our documentary we can tell backwards? You know, like what's our documentary that we can rewind the footage on or split it in half? Like that stuff is the stuff that I kind of nerd out in my brain. But it would have to meet the story. Like the thing that I care about most is it isn't just about, you know, backflips and gimmicks. It's like, no, when I find a story,

‍

that I think is really interesting and we find the way in and all of sudden we realize like, you know, it could work on this, you know, it has a full archive, it's audio only, what are we seeing? Wow, we could see anything. Okay, well, if we were seeing it, maybe it's not see and say, let's start to get a little more abstract with it. So all of those choices are creative choices, not necessarily technology driven, though I'm sure that will open more doors when used right in a way that we all kind of ethically feel is correct.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (45:50.976)

But right now what I get excited about in pushing form is making films feel so specific, making each film feel like the work it's doing, both in its story and its approach is the only, only that film could do that work. You know, like how do we make every film feel so individual? And, and in that way, regardless about taking big swings, trying, failing, you know, seeing what works and what resonates, but doing that work too, you know, and I think that that will allow us.

‍

to not kind of fall into the, and there's a world, there is a lane for people who want to consume certain things that fit a certain formula. And I'm not saying we have to absolve all of those for the things that feel right to us and that we love from the history of film. I'm just saying that the things I'm excited to be a part of are things that are, yeah, I hope very specific.

‍

Cameron Woodward (46:42.517)

I love it. Now I'm going to ask you a question that is sort of impossible to your point to even answer because, you know, it's the classic question, is, you know, what sort of practical advice do you offer about building strong collaborations with producers and directors and then developing that editorial voice that serves both story and craft? And if I pare it back, what I've heard it's, you know, get a job at an airline.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (47:09.454)

No, no, no, no.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (47:13.518)

that's about knowing yourself. Yeah, yeah, knowing what you need to do to be your best self. But because let me tell you that airline is what taught me to be a leader. I mean, I've said this before, but I before that I was such a I was such a nut thinking about tours and all this like that it has to be one person has to do everything like I was an all or nothing person. And that job in particular made me love working on a team. So I think there's you know, it's like, for me, I'm the Swiss Army knife of me came from

‍

a lot of different experiences. everybody, you know, I would say the thing that has made the strongest collaborations for me, both in the relationships that I've built that have opened doors for for projects and also in the projects themselves and kind of creating successful outcomes has been keeping it personal and honest. I'm not saying you have to tell everybody your life story. I'm just saying that I'm not a set of hands. I'm a person who has like

‍

you know, visions and goals and dreams and humor and, you know, all the things, you know, and mistakes and messiness, you know, I like making rooms laugh at me. Like I like telling everybody I'm a Faberge egg and give me the compliment sandwich, you know, like be keeping it real and honest with the people I work with has not only made them family to me, but has created the space for us to take the swings, to try things and trust each other, show bad cuts.

‍

and not be afraid that someone will think that's all I'm capable of, right? They'll get that there's like a, there's a diamond in the rough or what I'm trying to say, you know, and also learning what people can see, you know, it's like there are certain people I work with that I kind of have to fine cut it before they see it. And then there are people that I can absolutely throw a heap of nothing if so that you can get the essence of what I'm trying to dream up. And, but that wouldn't, I wouldn't know that if I didn't know the person. And you know, this goes back to,

‍

When I got hired on The Sentence, Rudy and I, the first interview we had that he had to try to see if he wanted to hire me, we ended up talking for so long and walking to the train and sharing our stories. And it was like the most incredible experience. And I think it permeated everything we've done together. I've cut a majority of what Rudy's directed and, and that has made for some real world magic. And so I guess what I'm saying is like, there is a lot of, you know, there's of course, practical level things that I should be sharing, which is like,

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (49:37.494)

you know, the way we do notes or the way we communicate. And that is stuff I'm always willing to share. But I honestly believe looking at everybody on the team as people who have their own stories to tell and their own ways to give to the project and kind of taking that very personal, we'll create a space for everybody to do their best work in a way that will feel so personal. I always say, if you watch a film that was made under duress, I think you can feel it. Doesn't mean the film won't be effective.

‍

but you can feel it. When you see a film that was made with love, you can feel it. And that is, think, where we make the most special work right now. And so, with any collaboration, I guess I would say, tell people what you need, what you want, put it out in the world. But a part of that is also being yourself and getting excited about what you bring to it and knowing that only you can do what you do. Even if you're an editor and you don't imagine this whole, like, the director and I'm here to serve, it's like,

‍

We're all here to work together and dream together and honor the vision, you know, that obviously the director is dreaming of, but it's such a team sport. know, film really is in the coolest way. And you know, it really is in my brain. just, yeah.

‍

Cameron Woodward (50:51.421)

You're on the creative side. I'm over here on the like film finance side, but it's so funny. Like you were mentioning like, hey, bring an editor in early. Like every production accountant I've ever met in my life is like, bring the production accountant in early. You know what like?

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (51:06.24)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, again, like not for all of you budget people that have to do that hard work. Cause the one thing I know I don't want to do is produce a lot. I'm like, I just want to make stuff, but I, but I, I'm glad I can do some of that. But I want to say like the version of that, there is a version of that where it's like, should pay people for the work they do, but it's like hiring someone for a day that you're investing in the longterm of wanting to work with them.

‍

that will go far longer than that day, right? I always think the investment in the process will save you money in the long run. So I hope we can all start building that model together.

‍

Cameron Woodward (51:44.077)

100%. this has been such a wonderful conversation. You are so smart. You are so warm. You are so talented. And I am so thankful that you are such an absolute, ambitious maniac and constantly making great work because your work is great and it's so appreciated and it's so good that it gets out there. So thank you for joining me on, production and sharing your story and like digging into these projects. It's really been a.

‍

Viridiana Lieberman (52:12.471)

Thank you. This means the world to me. Thank you very much.

‍

Cameron Woodward (52:15.704)

You bet.